-Earlier tonight, I got to talk to my first guest
about today's events.
He's a multiple Emmy and Peabody Award-winning journalist
and "The New York Times" best-selling author
of "What Unites Us."
Here is my conversation with the one and only Dan Rather.
Dan, thank you so much for being here tonight.
-Jimmy, thank you for having me on.
It's a privilege and an honor to be with you. Thank you.
-We thought the big news of the day
was going to be how things went in Georgia
and with the electoral-vote count,
but then this afternoon, Trump supporters stormed the Capitol.
And we're talking a few hours before this will air,
but could you give us a breakdown
of what happened today and where things stand now
as events continue to unfold?
-Well, things are continuing to unfold.
During the evening, I expect they will continue
even deep into the early morning hours
because this has been an absolutely --
and frequently overworked word but an apt word in this case.
This is an absolutely unprecedented situation
for our country and one -- and a very serious situation.
Basically what happened was that, increasingly, it appeared
that the two Democratic candidates were winning
and had won the Senate runoff races in Georgia.
This would, of course, mean that the Democrats
would have effective control of the Senate
in the new Biden administration.
So, that news didn't really get solidified
until the wee hours of early this morning.
After that, there was a rally planned
in front of the White House, a pro-Trump rally.
The President -- I use the word "incited" it.
You can't use any other word.
Incited the crowd to march down to the Capitol
and to force a delay
in the certification of Biden's victory.
That was to be the other big headline of the day.
The big headline of the day was expected to be Democrats
win two Senate races in Georgia
and the combined Congressional power in the country
certifying the final electoral votes.
Even as Vice President Pence was presiding in the chamber
and the final certification of the Biden victory
was getting under way,
then this crowd stormed the U.S. Capitol.
You can describe it as "protesters," if you like.
I, myself, think they were certainly rioters.
They broke windows. They were violent.
They stormed the Capitol.
They stormed actually into the room where --
the chamber, where the deliberation was happening.
All hell broke loose.
There was no law and there was no order for a while.
You had mob violence
inside the Capitol of the United States.
Now finally the law-enforcement officers, first of all,
they got some reinforcements.
Secondly, they sort of solidified their own response.
And most, if not all,
of what I call the rioters were put outside the Capitol.
It's a little hard to say what the situation is at this moment,
and I emphasize that it's fluid.
But here's the thing, Jimmy.
We have never seen this in our country before --
an effort to overthrow
the legitimate vote of the people
in a presidential election.
This was by any dictionary definition
a coup attempt, which is to say,
"Okay, we've had an election.
We, this mob, we don't agree
with the outcome of the election,
which even the courts have certified in their own way.
And we're going to overturn it."
That's a definition of a coup, and I do think
this could be described as a case of domestic violence.
Not everybody in this crowd of people were violent today.
Not nearly everybody.
But there certainly were outright rioters
who were taking part in domestic violence,
and the overall scene was one of a coup attempt.
It has failed. That's pretty much where we are.
-Do you think there will be charges against these people?
-Well, let's be very clear. There should be
because if you break windows in the U.S. Capitol
and go in and occupy the offices
of elected representatives of the country,
those are crimes.
Whether they will be prosecuted or not,
frankly, I have my doubts as time goes along.
But there is a movement to try to identify those people
who were actually breaking windows and occupying offices
and bring charges against them.
But the real important question of the moment, Jimmy,
and I think this will play out over the next few days,
is what is to be done about the president of the United States?
Make no mistake -- there are talks in the Capitol
among some Republicans, including some Democrats,
of should some move be made to remove President Trump
from office in just his last 13 days?
He only has 13 more days in office.
That shows you how serious the situation is.
I'm not saying that any of that's going to happen.
You know, under the 25th Amendment to the Constitution,
if the Vice President
and a majority of the cabinet secretaries
agree that the President is not capable
or won't carry out his duties, then they can ask the Congress
to have a vote in both houses to remove the President.
That's a major step.
I wouldn't go so far as to say
that we can expect that step to happen,
but it gives you an indication, again, of how serious this is,
when you have that kind of serious talk
in the Capitol of the United States.
It's the result of this unprecedented day
in which as a country, as a people,
we embarrassed ourselves. -How --
-In the eyes of the world,
we clearly embarrassed ourselves.
-How much is President Trump to blame for what happened today
and who else is to blame?
-Well, I'll give you my opinion, Jimmy,
but, you know, I always like to be straight with you.
There are plenty of people who have other opinions,
but I think that history is going to judge
that President Trump primarily is responsible
for what happened today.
The power of the presidency
is a power to inspire and/or to incite.
And, clearly, President Trump has been trying to incite
just this kind of action.
There's no -- You know,
I don't see that there's any real argument about it.
The argument can be, "Well, he was justified in doing it,"
which is a false argument.
But the direct answer to your question --
that the buck starts with President Trump,
and it goes through those members of his party,
the Republican Party.
Not all members of the Republican Party,
but, really, a large majority of members of the Republican Party
have aided and abetted the President
in convincing a large section of the American public
that Joe Biden would be an illegitimate president,
that the election was not legitimate
and Biden wasn't legitimately elected.
It started with the President.
It goes through his enablers and allies
and people within the Republican Party.
And then, again, frankly, Jimmy, none of us can say
that we don't share at least some of the blame
because we have let this happen.
We have reached this point in our history
where we have an undisciplined mob,
including some rioters and domestic terrorism,
storming our own Capitol.
Exclamation point.
-Were you surprised to see how easy it was for them
to break into the Capitol?
-I was surprised.
Perhaps, I shouldn't have been, but I thought, frankly,
that a combination of the Capitol police
and the Washington police and federal forces,
such as the FBI and others,
would have a plan for meeting this kind of effort
to a mob take over the Capitol,
so I was surprised
that law enforcement was not more effective.
In the early going, it was not effective at all.
But before we criticize the law-enforcement officers,
I want to know what instructions they had.
I don't know what instructions they had.
In the early going, they just -- they fled the mob.
They just -- They absolutely fled.
They just fled -- The law-enforcement officers,
that Capitol police, and others there just fled the scene.
After a while, they began to try to get control,
but in the early going, the performance was very poor.
But, again, that may be on orders from some other place,
including, you know, somebody in the Capitol
who's in charge of the force.
We just have to see.
But, you know, as we speak now, Jimmy,
the National Guard has been called in.
I think a strong case could be made
given the consequences of today that the National Guard
should have been standing by as this day started
because President Trump had already scheduled that rally.
But nonetheless, order is being restored in the Capitol.
The National Guard is now there.
Things will probably simmer down somewhat
over the next 12 to 24 hours,
but we as a country, as a people,
we're stuck with the question, "What do we do now?"
We know this is embarrassing.
We know this is not the American way.
We know it's perilous.
It's very dangerous to have this situation prevail.
So the question is, what do we do now?
-There's lots more I want to talk to you about.
More with Dan Rather when we come back
to "The Tonight Show," everybody.
-Thank you, Jimmy.