Jaakko I've just finished about face the book amazing book interested how you
modeled your style on Hackworth though hack was a renegade and always bending
the rules to break to the breaking point but in extreme ownership you talk about
for example not pushing back on higher command when it came to Iraqi troops
have listened to podcasts too but was hoping you could go into it a bit more
yeah so I guess that that's a good question hack he was kind of considered
a renegade but but also he was also a total company man you got to realize
that there's that dichotomy there there's a guy that hack loved the army
he loved the army he wanted his uniform would look super squared away
he followed all the rules and regulations that and he supported the
leadership all the time when the leadership was right hmm and that's what
makes him a good renegade in my opinion and I was very much the same way I was
all about the Navy you know I was all about the games as a matter of fact Tony
you know what Tony used to say it was a little thing we got going in to you
bruiser that spread around but of course it came from Tony first which was all
Navy all the time would just be joking about you know I think I don't know what
originally caused it but like guys would make fun of me because I would wear like
jungle boots or Dan or boots out to on Liberty with a pair of like old jeans
yeah because when you're when you're like that kind of old just raised in the
team's you don't even know any different and you're like oh I'm going out and I
need to our shoes cool where's my jungle boots that's what you end up like and
and you're into it you're not like you think it's good you think it's normal
like this is the way things are it's not and so I supported the teams and HACC
supported the army of course but this is the thing if the leadership was wrong or
there was something being passed down that was wrong and it was a big wrong
like if it was little I wouldn't be like oh man this is crap they're making us
wear a different pair of shorts now cuz like that would happen like some new
commanding officer would come in change some thing right and sometimes
we're gonna do that with dude be quiet you know just be quiet you know they're
giving you new shorts where are the new shorts you know oh they're telling us we
can't wear baseball hats anymore cool don't worry baseball hats yeah and some
gospel gold the truth who cares it's like I don't care what I'm wearing
on my head you know like oh you want to issue his different ball caps to find
whatever but then if it was a larger issue then or obviously if it was
something that was like actually wrong like criminally wrong or morally wrong
or something like that then yeah I'd be like no we can't do that so the reason
that I didn't push back on Iraqi troops and working with Iraqi troops when we
got to Ramadi was because as I looked at it I realized that it was the right
thing to do and yes it was gonna be more dangerous and yes it definitely took us
out of our comfort zone but as I explained in Xtreme ownership if we
didn't train those people up if we didn't train the Iraqi soldiers and take
them out and get them fighting and get them squared away on the battlefield
then Americans would have been doing it forever so it was the correct call was
to do that now I've talked about the same same thing when they told us a
ratio they gave us a ratio of how many Iraqis we had to have for everyone Iraqi
we had to have I don't know what that I forget what that I was seven or for
every one SEAL we had to have seven Iraqi soldiers they they said that
something like that I forgot what the numbers were and I said that doesn't
make sense to us cuz sometimes we only have ten guys to go out and I'm there's
no way I'm sending only one seal with ten Iraqi soldiers not doing it need a
corpsman need a radio men need machine gunner need a leader like that's what I
need so and when I pushed back because I didn't push back against ball caps and
because I didn't push back against some stupid uniform change they were like oh
yeah well that actually makes sense Jocko we don't want you to go in the
field with only one seal so I would clearly push back if it was something
that makes the same thing with like the martial arts training that they had us
doing in the in the late 90s and early 2000s it was not good mm-hmm and I was
told everyone hey this is not smart this is not good
this training is dumb we need to do other training that's better and same
thing you know things go well like here's another like stupid example they
wouldn't want to issue a platoon the the radio is you were gonna take on
deployment because they didn't want you to break them or whatever
mm-hmm and so they'd issue not enough radios for everyone and so now that
everyone doesn't know how to operate the radios and you're basically
operationally testing the radios while you're going through your workup so I
said hey this is garbage issue everyone radios right that's how we operate
that's how we need to train just so in the training they wouldn't issue that
the radios yeah there was like a time period we're low on radios they said
we're gonna keep these radios for deploying minutes that doesn't make
sense yeah I got a good idea buy more radios
yeah so you know those are things I push back on and you were always pushing back
on the type of training that was gonna happen and who was gonna how you're
gonna run the training so when something when it made sense to push back I push
back just like Hackworth did now hackworth did it on a massive scale
because he eventually pushed back on the way the war in Vietnam was being run
mm-hmm and had I been smart enough and the war didn't take the shift that it
took and we didn't move towards counterinsurgency and we didn't make
those adjustments that the that Colonel MacFarland implemented in Ramadi maybe
maybe I doubt it maybe I would have been smart to say hey we're not running this
war right we need to do something different and run another clan but but
at the time you know Colonel MacFarland made great decisions
he led they had a great plan a great strategy so I was 100% onboard but if
you know Hackworth that didn't happen they were not fighting correctly against
the Vietnamese and and they were taking massive casualties for a hill that two
days later they've give back mm-hmm and so he was saying what are you doing and
and the other thing you know when he took over the hardcore battalion they
were fighting for months and they had they had literally killed of almost no
anyway I think it was zero I think actually zero enemy and yet they had
taken all kinds of casualties themselves and so we've seen wait this is wrong
this is wrong so I think that's that's what being a leader is you support the
stuff you support the command yes of course you support the command when it
makes sense and as long as it makes sense and normally it's gonna make sense
you know I mean normally it's gonna make sense not like the the Admirals and the
generals are saying hey how can we lose this war let's come up with a stupid
strategy no they're doing the best they can so it's not like it's a regular
occurrence I mean like I said when I was working for Carter Colonel MacFarland he
was a smart guy he was a brilliant guy that had a great strategy of I'm like
okay awesome I'm here to support and and I'll tell you when I did and this is I
think this is important is that even though I was kind of a renegade and I
was more rebellious when I was a kid obviously I was a I was young when I got
the SEAL Teams then so you know we would pushing all
those things that I said oh we got to do this that was me when I was at E for in
the SEAL Teams you know what we got to do that we should just be able to do
whatever we want you know we're just stupid but as I got older I realized
that you need to you know come across as a renegade quote-unquote to come across
as a big rebel that doesn't well immediately when you go and push back on
something everyone just dismisses you oh yeah jock oh he's just a loudmouth he
just he just pushed it back against everything he doesn't he's won't do
everything his way no you want them to say oh wow hold on a second if jock was
pushing back against this yeah then this this must be something wrong
here because he doesn't push back against stuff he tells the line all the
time so we should listen to him that's what you want to build that's what I did
my best to build and that's how I think it would be comparable to the way
Hackworth led and the way that I tried to um obviously I know Hackworth but I
stole as much as I could from him and the weird thing is I'll tell you this I
always say I stole from him but it wasn't like I was sitting there reading
the book knowing I'm gonna do what he did here I think it was just absorbed
and even even the naming of task unit bruiser like when I did it I wasn't
thinking this is what Hackworth did but it was real obvious that that's where I
got it from like I didn't think I'm gonna rename this indeed we're gonna
turn this thing around base to order would not turn around but we're gonna
build this based on no I was like you know what we're not gonna be tasking at
Bravo because that sounds lame we're gonna be tasking a bruiser because that
sounds awesome you know and and and then later you know
I look back I'm like oh god that's what that's exactly what hack words that I
obviously stole it from him yeah so appreciate it AK but that's what I'd say
BIA renegade but that should be that should be in the background that should
be in the back of your mind in the front of your mind should be hey I'm a
supporter of what's happening yeah kind of like the willingness to be a renegade
if you have to yeah yeah if you have to and believe me I've known all kinds of
good seals that were to renegade yeah yeah just like I'm ironic yeah there's a
straight-up hey I'm a renegade and and you know that just it the only guys that
could get away with that well guys that were so ultimately operationally squared
away yeah that people go yeah you know he's kind
of a maniac but dude he's really really good and really tactically sound all
that and they could they make that happen
now as you get more and more senior homie don't play like after a certain
point it's done and you got to get you got to play the game that's what you got
to do as you get more senior got to play the game and from like your subordinates
viewpoint if if they look to me and go oh jock was just playing the game he's
just doing it yes I am yes I am because this way gives me more ability to
control everything that's gonna impact you people that work for me
so yes I'm gonna play the game so you don't have to you're welcome