>>> DO YOU THINK THAT IF YOU ARE
OUTSIDE AND NOT CLOSE TO PEOPLE
YOU STILL NEED TO WEAR A MASK?
>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS A QUESTION
THAT WERE LOOKING AT.
ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THATS
REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND
IS WHILE THERES WONDERFUL NEWS
AND WERE GETTING MORE AND MORE
PEOPLE VACCINATED EVERY SINGLE
DAY, WE STILL HAD 57,000 CASES
OF COVID YESTERDAY.
WE STILL HAD 733 DEATHS.
AND SO WHILE WE ARE REALLY
TRYING TO SCALE UP VACCINATION,
WE HAVE THIS COMPLEX MESSAGE
THAT WE STILL HAVE HOT SPOTS IN
THIS COUNTRY AND WE WILL BE
LOOKING AT THE OUTDOOR MASKING
QUESTION, BUT ITS ALSO IN THE
CONTEXT OF THE FACT THAT WE
STILL HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING
OF COVID.
>> THATS CDC DIRECTOR, DR.
ROCHELLE WALENSKY YESTERDAY ON
THE "TODAY" SHOW TALKING ABOUT
THE DEBATE OVER WHETHER PEOPLE
SHOULD STILL BE MANDATED TO WEAR
A MASK OUTSIDE.
JOINING US NOW, PHYSICIAN AND
FELLOW AT THE BROOKINGS
INSTITUTION, DR. KAVITA PATEL.
SHES A FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE
HEALTH POLICY DIRECTOR AND AN
MSNBC MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR.
AND WRITER AND REPORTER FOR "THE
NEW YORK TIMES," DAVID LEONARD.
IT WAS SOMETHING TO WATCH DR.
WALENSKY KIND OF HEM AND HAW
OVER THAT QUESTION.
IS THERE ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE
THAT SHOWS THAT NOT WEARING A
MASK FAR FROM OTHER PEOPLE
OUTDOORS IS A RISK OF COVID-19?
>> HI, WILLIE, GOOD MORNING.
IVE RARELY SEEN AN ISSUE THAT
DIVIDES THE PUBLIC HEALTH
COMMUNITY SO FERVENTLY AS THIS
ONE.
BUT TO YOUR QUESTION, THERE IS
VERY LITTLE SCIENTIFIC PROOF
THAT IF YOURE OUTDOORS AND
YOURE NOT SYMPTOMATIC AND
YOURE DISTANT, THAT YOU DO NOT
NEED TO WEAR A MASK.
THE RISK IS VERY LOW.
AND INFECTION TRANSMISSION HAS
NOT BEEN RECORDED.
I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OEFD OFEVIDE
IT.
AND IVE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE,
PRE-VACCINATION,
POST-VACCINATION, IF YOURE AWAY
FROM OTHERS, YOU DO NOT NEED TO
WEAR A MASK.
HOWEVER, WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF
FACTORS GOING ON SUCH AS
COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION.
WE HAVE PLACES WHERE CASES STILL
ARE RISING.
AND WE HAVE THE THREAT OF
VARIANTS, AS WELL AS THE FACT
THAT WE STILL ONLY HAVE ABOUT
HALF THE POPULATION VACCINATED.
SO TODAY, I THINK ITS VERY
REASONABLE AND I WEAR A MASK IF
IM AN OUTDOOR SPACE, BUT WITH
KIND OF CROWDED PEOPLE, A RALLY
OR AN OUTDOOR CONCERT OF SOME
KINT,
KIND AND I KNOW IM NOT GOING TO
BE ABLE TO RELIABLE KEEP DISTANT
FROM PEOPLE.
>> SO IS THE CDC WORRYING THAT
IF THEY SAY, YOU DONT NEED TO
WEAR A MASK OUTSIDE AT ALL IF
YOURE DISTANT, THAT THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SAY, YOU
DONT NEED TO WEAR A MASK
ANYWHERE.
WHY DONT THEY JUST COME OUT AND
SAY, IF YOURE OUT FOR A RUN AND
THERES NOBODY AROUND, YOU DONT
HAVE TO HAVE YOUR MASK ON.
>> ITS PART MESSAGING, AND A
LOT OF IT IS THE SCIENCE.
WE LOOK AT CASES.
ISRAEL DROPPED THE OUTDOOR MASK
MANDATE, WILLIE, ONLY WHEN THEY
WENT TO BARELY ONLY CASES AND
ABOUT 85% OF THEIR COUNTRY BEING
VACCINATED.
IM USING THAT AS A MILESTONE.
THE CDC IS LOOKING AT DATA KIND
OF DAILY FOR 100,000 CASE RATES.
AND THE EFFECT THAT YOU
MENTIONED IS REALLY A CRITICAL
ONE.
IF THEY SEND THE SIGNAL THAT
OUTDOOR MASKS ARE NOT NECESSARY,
IVE HAD THE VERY CONVERSATION
WITH MAYORS AND GOVERNORS WHO
SAID, WHAT CONSTITUTES OUTDOORS.
WHAT IM WORRIED ABOUT MORE,
ILL BE HONEST, THE OUTDOOR MASK
DEBATE, I WOULD MUCH RATHER
REPLACE THAT WITH THE INDOOR
MASK DEBATE, WHICH IS STILL
BEING DEBATED IN SOME STATES,
WHERE THEY DO NOT HAVE INDOOR
MASK REQUIREMENTS.
AND I WOULD PLEA AND BEG TO SAY
AT A MINIMUM, MAKE SURE THAT WE
HAVE INDOOR MASKING UNTIL WE GET
TO A CERTAIN LEVEL OF
VACCINATION.
AND ILL JUST ADD THAT IM
WATCHING WHATS HAPPENING IN
INDIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES.
THE THREAT OF KIND OF CONCERNING
VARIANTS DOES NOT ESCAPE ANY OF
US WHO STUDY PUBLIC HEALTH.
AND AS POLICY MAKERS, WHICH IS
WHAT THE CDC HAS TO THINK OF,
THEIR JOB IS ULTIMATELY TO
PROTECT AND MITIGATE RISK.
AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I
DONT KNOW HOW WEARING A MASK
PUTS YOU AT THAT MUCH RISK OR IS
THAT MUCH OF AN IMPOSITION.
I UNDERSTAND ITS NOT
CONVENIENT, BUT ITS CERTAINLY
NOT A BIG BERINTERVENTION IN THE
BIG PICTURE.
>> SINCE YOU MENTIONED INDIA,
THE SCENES WERE SEEING OUT OF
THAT COUNTRY ARE JUST
BREATHTAKING.
THE NUMBERS WERE SEEING ARE
BREATHTAKING.
WHAT IS GOING ON THERE AND IS
THERE ANY LESSON TO BE LEARNED
FOR US HERE?
>> YEAH, IVE ACTUALLY HAD
FAMILY ALMOST ON A DAILY
BASIS -- WE HAVE A LARGE FAMILY
STILL IN INDIA, IM A PATEL, AND
ALMOST EVERY DAY IM GETTING A
CALL THAT SOMEONES DIED OR
ASKING IF I HAVE A CONNECTION
THAT I CAN SEND REMDESIVIR OR
STEROIDS.
SO IT KIND OF BREAKS MY HEART TO
THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH
WE HAVE AND WHAT THEY DONT
HAVE.
BUT FOR LESSONS LEARNED, A
COUPLE OF THINGS, WILLIE, WE
THOUGHT INDIA WOULD ESCAPE THE
WORST OF IT BECAUSE WE HADNT
SEEN THE NUMBERS, AND IT JUST
REMINDS US, EVEN THOUGH WE DONT
SEE SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS IN
PLACES LIKE TEXAS AND OTHER
PARTS OF THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW,
ITS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE WE COULD
GET THERE IF WE DONT MAKE SURE
WE DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO DONT
WANT TO GET VACCINATED.
AND I HEARD YOUR COVERAGE OF
BIDENS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL,
AROUND HEALTH CARE, I WILL TELL
YOU, INDIA, THE WORLDS LARGEST
DEMOCRACY, THE PUBLIC HEALTH
INFRASTRUCTURE, VIRTUALLY
NONEXISTENT, ESPECIALLY IN MANY
PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
SO ITS ANOTHER REMINDER THAT
THESE ARE INVESTMENTS THAT HAVE
TO BE MADE, THAT NEED TO BE
SOMETHING OF A GLOBAL
INVESTMENT, IF YOU WILL.
>> THERES SOME TALK THAT THE
UNITED STATES SHOULD SEND
SURPLUS VACCINE TO INDIA TO HELP
STEM THIS TERRIBLE PROBLEM.
>>> SO DAVID, YOURE WRITING
ABOUT THIS.
IRRATIONALAL FEARS S NALFEARS IN
ABOUT COVID.
THERE IS A SENSE THAT PEOPLE ARE
AFRAID TO STEP BACK INTO NORMAL
LIFE, THAT TAKING OFF THE MASK,
IF YOURE OUT FOR A RUN OR
TAKING IT OFF AS YOU EAT DINNER
INSIDE, IS A VIOLATION OF THE
THINGS WE HAVE COME TO SEPTEMBER
AS NECESSARY.
>> I THINK THERE ARE A FEW
THINGS GOING ON.
ONE
ONE, I THINK THE PUBLIC HEALTH
MESSAGING HAS BEEN OFF.
THERE ISNT A SINGLE DOCUMENTED
CASE IVE BEEN AWARE OF ANYWHERE
IN THE WORLD OF BRIEF CASUAL
OUTDOOR CONTACT, LIKE PASSING
SOMEONE ON A SIDEWALK, LEADING
TO TRANSMISSION, NONE.
THIS IS A TINY RISK.
AND I UNDERSTAND WHY THE CDC
OFTEN WANTS TO BE EXTREMELY
CAUTIOUS AND THEY WANT TO DO
STUDY FIRST AND THEY NEVER WANT
TO SAY ANYTHING THAT MIGHT LEAD
PEOPLE TO TAKE MORE RISKS.
BUT PUBLIC HEALTH MESSAGING
SHOULD TRUST PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT
MORE AND BASICALLY SAY, LOOK,
YOU DO NOT NEED A MASK OUTDOORS.
IF YOU WANT TO WEAR ONE
OUTDOORS, THATS FINE.
IF YOURE IN CLOSE CONVERSATION
WITH SOMEONE OUTDOORS, YOU
SHOULD WEAR ONE, KPUSHD REALLY,
REALLY WEAR ONE INDOORS.
PEOPLE WILL BE MORE WILLING TO
LISTEN IF WERE HONEST RATHER
THAN ALWAYS DIALING IT UP.
WE TAKE RISK EVERY DAY IN OUR
LIVES.
WE GET IN CARS AND EAT FOOD
WHICH WE COULD CHOKE ON AND WE
GO SWIMMING.
SO I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY
HELPFUL IF WE STARTED TREATING
PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE
ADULTS THAN THE CDC HAS BEEN
DOING AND SAYING, LOOK, THE RISK
OF THIS IS VIRTUAL ZERO, SO YOU
CAN FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH IT.
THESE OTHER SITUATIONS ARE TRULY
DANGEROUS.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, WEAR A
MASK INDOORS, ABSOLUTELY, AS
OFTEN AS POSSIBLE.
ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE NOT
VACCINATED.
>> DAVID, JONATHAN LEMIRE IS
HERE WITH A QUESTION FOR YOU.
JOHN?
>> DAVID, IN YOUR PIECE, YOU
STARTED WITH A PROFESSOR WHO
TALKS TO HIS CLASS EVERY YEAR
WITH A SPECIFIC ALLEGORY, THIS
TIME ESPECIALLY ABOUT COVID-19.
CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT TO
TAKE FROM IT, AS WERE ALL
TRYING TO SOMEHOW GET THROUGH
THIS PANDEMIC.
AND AS WE SEE AN END STAGE
HOPEFULLY A FEW MONTHS AWAY.
>> I LOVE THAT FABLE.
JUDGE GUIDO CALLABRESE.
HE SAYS, I WANT YOU TO IMAGINE
THAT A GOD COMES FORTH AND
OFFERS SOCIETY A WONDROUS NEW
INVENTION.
IT MAKES YOUR LIFE BETTER IN
ALMOST EVERY WAY.
YOU CAN HAVE JOBS YOU WOULDNT
HAVE HAD.
YOU CAN SPEND MORE TIME WITH
FRIEND AND FAMILY.
BUT THERES A COST.
AND THE COST IS THAT THIS GOD
WILL STRIKE DOWN A THOUSAND
YOUNG WOMEN AND MEN IN EXCHANGE
FOR THE INVENTION EVERY YEAR.
AND HE SAYS TO THE CLASS, WOULD
YOU TAKE IT?
AND ALMOST INVARIABLY, THEY
SAID, NO, WE WOULDNT TAKE IT,
THATS NOT WORTH IT.
AND JUDGE CALABRESE SAYS, WELL,
WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THIS AND THE AUTOMOBILE?
THE AUTOMOBILES KILL 40,000
AMERICANS EVERY YEAR.
AND TO ME THE LAST THING HERE IS
WHEN WERE CONFRONTED WITH A NEW
SITUATION, A NEW RISK, WE ARE
EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS.
BUT THERE ARE A SET OF ENDURING
RISKS THAT WEVE JUST COME TO
LIVE WITH, LIKE THE AUTOMOBILE.
AND WERE IN THIS FUNNY CASE
WITH COVID RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS
COVID HAS BEEN HORRIBLE.
THE WORST INFECTIOUS DISEASE
THAT ANY OF US HAVE EVER LIVED
THROUGH, BUT FOR VACCINATED
PEOPLE, THE RISK IS TINY.
ITS TINY OF GETTING IT, SMALLER
OF GETTING SICK, AND TINY OF
INFECTING OTHERS.
WELL HAVE TO START MODERATING
OUR BEHAVIOR, AND SAY, THE RISK
IS NOT ZERO, BUT ITS SO LOW, WE
HAVE TO START THINKING OF IT
MORE LIKE A LIGHTNING STRIKE OR
A SHARK ATTACK.
IM REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE
EFFECTS ON KID.
IM WORRIED ABOUT THE EFFECTS ON
LOW-INCOME PEOPLE WHO CANT WORK
IF WE DONT GET BACK TO NORMAL.
AND THATS WHY I THOUGHT OF THE
FABLE THIS WEEK.
>> ITS A GREAT ONE.
AND 89 MILLION PEOPLE ON OUR
SCREEN ARE FULLY VACCINATED IN
THIS COUNTRY.
200 MILLION VACCINATIONS PASSED
THIS MILESTONE THIS WEEK, BUT