[Hassan Ilyas] Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim. Thank you for your time Ghamdi sahab.
It must have come to your knowledge that the Indian parliament has passed a bill,
which confers Indian citizenship on the basis of religion.
This has put indian Muslims under a lot of distress.
And Pakistani Muslims are of the opinion that this has vindicated Jinnah's views,
implying that Muslims are not safe in India.
They are being discriminated on religious grounds.
How do you look at this bill? And how should the Indian Muslims react to this?
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] As you know, I am of the opinion that
for nation states to bar people from emigrating is an unethical principle.
This land belongs to God. Every person has a fundamental right
to live where he desires. Tell me, the people who centuries ago
migrated and settled in Australia and America, finding abode in the land of God.
After that, many communities in modern times went to the same places.
They went and captured their lands. What right did they have?
If you believe in the principle that the earth belongs to God,
anyone can go wherever they desire and find themselves a home.
The administrative unifrmity that has been created in the form of nation states
are basically administrative unities only.
It someone has committed a crime you can investigate them.
Otherwise just like the aboriginals had a right to migrate to any part of the world.
It is said the dawn of human civilisation began from Africa.
So people went all over the world from there by migrating of course.
No one had put any restrictions on the borders.
In the second phase, when modern communities emigrated,
those who went to Australia, or came to America.
Did these people have a passport? Did they apply for a visa?
Nothing of the sort.
The fundamental human rights should necessarily include a right to emigrate,
that on God's land no restrictions can be imposed on the migration of people,
not on the basis of race, color, or being born in a certain place,
or on the basis on religion. This was a point of principle.
But no one is willing to accept it in today's world,
which leads to great injustices.
You see huge swathes of lands being are lying deserted and unoccupied,
and then there are places where people live in abject poverty.
When I read the verse of the Quran where Allah says
if you are oppressed in your own land, and you are being persecuted
why are you living under oppression? Emigrate.
The earth of Allah is spacious enough for you to emigrate!
[Hassan] 'Waradullahi wasiya'.
[Ghamidi] Yes! But is it so today?
People are being persecuted. There are forcefull religions conversions.
We know what is happening in China today.
It is happening with the Muslims only.
The same thing happened with Rohingyas, in Myanmar.
And the same sort of persecution has happened in many other places.
Millions of people were rendered stateless.
Due to religious persecution and altercation they migrated to other places
where they were not accepted as emigrants.
Who gave the native dwellers the right to stop people from emigrating to those lands
They did not come with any license to occupy God's earth,
and neither should anyone else require it. This is a point of principle.
I believe that the land belongs to God, He has entrusted it to human beings.
And He has done so transcending the barriers of colour, race or religion.
People can live wherever they desire.
It is only the creator of this world who has the right
to make you vacate the land or to put any restrictions.
[Hassan] So migration is a fundamental human right.
[Ghamidi] Yes, this is the essential point.
Now today we have nation-states that have been founded on the basic principle,
that even in them, when someone is given citizenship, there can't be discrimination
Especially nation-states which are founded on geography and is a modern phenomenon.
Earlier we used to have kingdoms. Kings would establish their kingdoms and
as conquerors they would rule over those communities.
That was a different world. In modern era when we've created nation-state,
it was done on the basis of geography.
This is its fundamental principle.
That a people would inhabit a particular area of land.
So when we make restrictions against emigration, then I have stated
that is wrong in principle.
But if you must place such restrictions and giving license to people to enter,
you can't choose to let them in based on their color, race, or religion.
If they really wanted to do something they should have enacted a law,
which would welcome those people who are in distress, who are victimised,
their rights usurped, or where they are rendered stateless or oppressed,
for those you should have opened your doors. It would've been great.
I wish God bestows Muslim regimes too with the ability to do the same.
They don't even let Muslims enter into their countries!
Can you become a citizen of Saudi Arabia on the fact that you are a Muslim?
Can you do that in the Gulf countries? Or in Pakistan Or Malaysia?
Do we have a justification for it?
I believe that whatever is taking place, can only be termed as an injustice,
oppression, excesses, and a violation of people's fundamental rights.
That is why I would like to tell the Indian Muslims to not feel distressed.
These are the direct consequences of the idea of the nation state.
Had they taken a righteous path they would have been to some degree
a blessing for the world.
At least we'd know that there are certain places in the world,
where justice would prevail and discrimination would not exist
basod on color, creed, religion.
rather geography would be the only criteria to attain citizenship.
Even if that is not the case,
we should strive towards working on fundamental principles.
There is no reason for Muslims in Pakistan to feel happy about it.
Do they have any principled stance on this issue at any point?
I've just raised these questions.
Do you allow immigration to your land?
Are you willing to grant citizenship to those persecuted across the globe?
Are you ready to give citizenship to people who are being persecuted elsewhere.
We know when eastern Pakistan separated there were Biharis and others,
who already had Pakistan Citizenship. What happened to them?
Its about time that we stand tall against these discriminatory and meaningless
categorisation and stand on principle.
And all those who have a conscience should accept these principles.
[Hassan] Thank you for your time Ghamidi Sahab.