>>> WELCOME BACK TO "MORNING
JOE."
JOINING US NOW IS FORMER
REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR AND SOUTH
CAROLINA CONGRESSMAN MARK
SANFORD.
HE HAS A NEW BOOK COMING OUT IN
AUGUST ENTITLED "TWO ROADS
DIVERGED
DIVERGED: A SECOND CHANCE FOR
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE
MOVEMENT, THE NATION AND
OURSELVES."
WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.
ID LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT THAT
SECOND CHANCE, BUT I THINK ALSO
THE QUESTION MIGHT BE HOW TO GET
REPUBLICANS WHO ARE IN OFFICE
RIGHT NOW TO TAKE IT.
>> WELL, THATS THE $94
QUESTION, THATS WHY YOU HAVE TO
REED
READ THE BOOK.
BUT THE LONG AND THE SHORT OF IT
IS, WE ARE AT A CROSSROADS.
THAT IS
NOT JUST AS A PETERARTY OR A
CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT BUT GOING
FORWARD.
THE NORMS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
IN THE LAST SEGMENT ARE
ABSOLUTELY STARTLING.
WHAT NEEDS TO BE REMEMBERED HERE
IS THAT THE ROME REPUBLIC AFTER
500 YEARS JUST DIDNT FALL, IT
WAS THE EROSION OF NORMS AND
INSTITUTIONS AND TRADITIONS THAT
PAVED THE WAY FOR THE LIKES OF A
CAESAR.
WHAT IM SUGGESTING IS THAT
WERE PLAYING WITH ABSOLUTE
FIRE.
WE HAVE GOT TO GET OFF THE ROAD
WERE ON AND TRY A DIFFERENT
PATH, AND ULTIMATELY THATS WHAT
THIS BOOK IS ABOUT.
>> SO, MARK, WHEN WE HAD JOHN
BAYNOR ON, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID
HOW DARE HE TALK ABOUT DONALD
TRUMP.
HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR STARTING
THE FIRE.
THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WOULD SAY
THAT YOU AND I IN THE 94
CONGRESS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR
STARTING THIS FIRE, THAT TRUMP
WAS NOTHING NEW, THAT THE GROUND
WAS PAVED FOR DONALD TRUMP WELL
BEFORE HE GOT THERE.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO CRITICS THAT
YOU AND I, THE CLASS OF 94,
EVEN RONALD REAGAN IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR WHERE WE ARE
RIGHT NOW?
>> I WOULD SAY GIVE ME A BREAK.
THAT IS A COMPLETE JOKE.
AND I SAY IT FOR THIS REASON.
RONALD REAGAN, WHETHER YOU LIKED
HIM OR NOT, WAS ABSOLUTELY
CRYSTAL CLEAR ABOUT A GOVERNING
PHILOSOPHY.
SOMETIMES HE GOT THERE,
SOMETIMES HE DIDNT, BUT HE WAS
CLEAR ABOUT WHAT HE VIEWED AS
TRUE NORTH.
SIMILARLY THE CLASS OF 1994 WITH
A CONTRACT WITH AMERICA, WITH
THINGS THAT WE VIEWED AS TRUE
NORTH WERE ULTIMATELY ABOUT
CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES.
YOU COULD AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH
THEM, BUT THERE WAS A GUIDING,
GOVERNING PHILOSOPHY.
WHAT WE HAVE DEVOLVED DOWN TO
NOW IS A CULT PERSONALITY BUILT
AROUND ONE MAN.
NOT A GOVERNING PHILOSOPHY, BUT
ONE MAN.
AND THAT IS A FAR CRY FROM WHAT
YOU SAW BEFORE.
SO I WOULD SAY, NO, WE WERENT
OPPRESSED INTO WHATS OCCURRED
OF LATE.
WE WERE TRYING TO GOVERN TOWARD
CONSERVATIVE PHILOSOPHY WHICH IS
WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY USED
TO ACTUALLY BE ABOUT.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT PLAYING WITH
FIRE.
THE PROBLEM, THOUGH, THAT I
THINK WERE CONFRONTING RIGHT
NOW IS GETTING EVERYONE TO SEE
THE SAME THING, FIRE.
SO LETS USE JANUARY 6th AS AN
EXAMPLE.
WHAT DO WE MAKE OF PEOPLE THAT
YOUVE WORKED WITH, JOE WORKED
WITH WHO REFUSED TO SEE THE FIRE
THE SAME WAY, JANUARY 6 FOR WHAT
IT WAS?
>> WELL, A, I THINK YOU HAVE TO
DIFFERENTIATE.
I WOULD SAY A LOT OF PEOPLE
THAT, QUOTE, DIDNT SEE IT, HALF
OF THE HOUSE VOTING AFTERWARD TO
NOT BASICALLY CAUDIFY WHAT THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE HAD COME UP
WITH, I THINK THATS
SELF-PRESERVATION.
THE NAME OF THE GAME IS STAYING
IN THE GAME FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE
IN POLITICS.
THERE IS A LOT OF I HEAR NO
EVIL, I SEE NO EVIL, I SPEAK NO
EVIL BASED ON I WANT TO KEEP MY
JOB.
THATS WHATS REALLY GOING ON.
SO I WOULD SAY FOR THAT GROUP, I
THINK ITS THE OBVIOUS, LET ME
STAY IN OFFICE.
FOR A LOT OF OTHER FOLKS WHO SAW
IT DIFFERENTLY AT THE GRASSROOTS
LEVEL, THERE WAS GENUINE
FRUSTRATION WITH THE WAY IN
WHICH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAD
CEASED TO DELIVER AND STAND FOR
THE IDEALS THAT THEY HAD FOUGHT
FOR FOR YEARS IN THE TRENCHES.
AND I ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND THAT
FRUSTRATION, BUT WHAT WAS TAKEN
WAS, FRANKLY, INCITEMENT OF THE
CROWD.
SEDITION IS WHAT YOU WOULD CALL
IT.
I THINK THATS WHAT PRESIDENT
TRUMP DID IN RILING UP THAT
CROWD SAYING, LETS GO TO THE
CAPITOL AND PUT A STOP TO THIS.
YOU HAVE GENUINE FRUSTRATION,
SOME OF IT WARRANTED BY PEOPLE
AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL,
OBVIOUSLY SOME OF IT TAKEN WAY
TOO FAR BY SOME OF THE NUT JOBS
THAT STORMS THE CAPITOL, BUT
YOUVE GOT A LOT OF
SELF-PRESERVATION, AND, FRANKLY,
CAUDIFYING AND JUST YOU PUSHING
AHEAD BY PEOPLE IN OFFICE
BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KEEP THEIR
JOBS.
>> KASIE IS WITH US.
YOU HAVE A QUESTION, KASIE?
>> NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO MAKE
THIS ARGUMENT.
WEVE HAD A LOT OF THESE
CONVERSATIONS FOR A LONG TIME
NOW, AND THERE HAVE BEEN A
HANDFUL OF YOU WILLING TO SAY
THESE THINGS ABOUT YOUR OWN
PARTY.
THE THING IS, ONE OF THE THINGS
YALL HAVE IN COMMON IS THAT
MOST OF YOU ARENT ACTUALLY
ELECTED REPUBLICANS ANYMORE
BECAUSE THE VOTERS, FRANKLY, ARE
WITH TRUMP, AND THE
ACKNOWLEDGMENT HAS BEEN THAT YOU
REALLY CANT CONVINCE THEM
OTHERWISE.
I GUESS MY QUESTION IS -- I
MEAN, I HEAR YOU, I TAKE THE
PREMISE OF YOUR BOOK, BUT WHATS
TO ACTUALLY BE DONE ABOUT IT?
WE HAVENT SEEN ANYONE
DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY CAN WIN AN
ELECTION.
NO REPUBLICAN WAS ABLE TO BEAT
DONALD TRUMP IN A HUGE PRIMARY
FIELD, AND LOOK WHERE THAT GOT
US.
>> YEAH.
BUT THESE ARE SORT OF THE
VISCITITUDES OF DEMOCRATIC RULE.
YOULL HAVE UPS AND DOWNS CRAZY
MOMENTS, THE FOUNDING FATHERS
TALKED ABOUT THAT.
WERE IN ONE OF THOSE CRAZY
MOMENTS.
WHAT WAS INCUMBENT UPON ME WITH
AN ELECTED OFFICIAL WITH 20
YEARS TIME SPAN FROM CONGRESS,
TO GOVERNMENT, BACK TO CONGRESS
IS WHAT I SAW TO BE TRUE NORTH.
IT COST ME MY JOB IN CONGRESS,
AND TO ALL YOUR GUESTS WHO SPOKE
OUT EARLIER.
FLAKE AND CORCORAN IN THE
SENATE, ME IN THE HOUSE.
BUT THAT TIME IS BEGINNING TO
ABATE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT
TRUMP ISNT ON TWITTER THE WAY
HE WAS, A LOT OF THINGS ARE
GOING TO DISSIPATE THAT VOICE,
AND THE QUESTION NOW IS WHERE DO
WE GO?
I THINK THATS WITH SOME DEGREE
OF AUTHORITY BASED ON THE WAY I
SPOKE UP WHEN I WAS IN OFFICE
AND BASED ON THOSE 25 YEARS,
THAT THOSE OF US WHO HAVE SEEN
THIS MOVIE PLAY OUGHT TO SPEAK
OUT AS DIRECTLY AND FORCEFULLY
AS WE CAN, AND ULTIMATELY THATS
WHAT THIS BOOK IS ABOUT.
>> FORMER GOVERNOR AND CANDIDATE
MARK SANFORD, THANK YOU.
I APPRECIATE IT.
HIS NEW BOOK TITLED "TWO ROADS
DIVERGED."
ITS COMING OUT THIS FALL.
GENE ROBINSON, WERE GOING TO
GIVE YOU A QUESTION.
WERE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
THE THING I FIND MOST
FASCINATING, GENE, ABOUT MARK
SANFORDS STORY IS HE MADE A
PERSONAL MISTAKE.
IT WOULD HAVE FINISHED MOST
POLITICAL CAREERS, BUT MARK
FOUGHT HIS WAY BACK.
HE GOT RE-ELECTED TO CONGRESS
DESPITE THAT, AND THEN HE GOT
VOTED OUT FOR ONLY VOTING WITH
DONALD TRUMP 92% OF THE TIME.
THAT TELDSLS YOU NOT ONLY ABOUT
THE PERSONALITY CULT, IT TELLS
YOU WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
IS.
>> MARK SANFORD IS A GENUINE
CONSERVATIVE, SO OBVIOUSLY THERE
IS NO PLACE FOR HIM IN THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY, FULL STOP.
THATS JUST WHERE IT IS.
I HOPE PEOPLE LISTEN TO HIS
MESSAGE.
IM NOT OPTIMISTIC THAT THEY
WILL, BUT FROM THE WHOLE
MORNING, CAN I SAY ONE OTHER
THING?
KEIR SIMMONS, THAT INTERVIEW
WITH PUTIN, IS HERO OF THE WEEK.
WHAT AN AMAZING, INSIGHTFUL
INTERVIEW.
HES GIVEN US A LOT TO CHEW ON
AS WE WAIT FOR PRESIDENT BIDENS
MEETING WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN.
>> YEAH.
AND HE REALLY LAID OUT CLEARLY
WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS IN
FRONT OF HIM AS HE GOES INTO