>> Steve: THERE'S AN OLD EXPRESSION: "YOU CAN NEVER GET ENOUGH OF WHAT YOU DON'T NEED"
OR "WITH MORE PROPERTY COMES MORE ANXIETY."
IN OUR MINDS AND OUR HEARTS, WE KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE.
BUT, WE HAVEN'T SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
PAUL BERTON, THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR, HAS WEIGHED IN ON THIS IN HIS NEW
BOOK.
IT'S CALLED, "SHOP-O-MANIA: OUR OBSESSION WITH POSSESSION."
AND PAUL BERTON JOINS US NOW HERE IN THE STUDIO.
>> Steve: GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.
>> Paul: NICE TO BE HERE.
>> Steve: I REALLY DID ENJOY THE BOOK WHICH SURPRISES ME BECAUSE I HATE SHOPPING.
BUT YOU REALLY NAILED IT HERE.
AND LET'S SET UP OUR DISCUSSION WITH THE FOLLOWING QUOTE FROM YOUR BOOK.
YOU WRITE:
>> Steve: PAUL, HOW LONG HAVE WE BEEN LIKE THIS?
>> OH, I THINK WE'VE BEEN LIKE THIS SINCE WE STOPPED HUNTING AND GATHERING.
AND THE MOMENT THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE TO CARRY STUFF AROUND, WE STARTED APPRECIATING, YOU KNOW,
SHINY ROCKS ON THE GROUND AND PROBABLY EVEN BEFORE THAT.
>> Steve: SO THAT IS MORE THAN A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO.
WE'RE GOING WAY BACK.
HERE IS -- WELL, HERE'S HOW YOU DESCRIBED SOME THAT YOU SAW A LONG WAY FROM HERE, AND LET'S DO
ANOTHER GRAPHIC HERE, SHALL WE?
WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE AND WHY ARE WE NOT MORE LIKE THEM?
>> THAT WAS A FAMILY I STAYED WITH WHEN I WAS TRAVELLING IN LADAKH, WHICH IS IN NORTHERN
INDIA, AND I WAS STRUCK BY ESPECIALLY THE CHILDREN WHO WERE, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT TOYS AND
MODERN CONVENIENCES AND ALWAYS SMILING AND ALWAYS HAPPY.
I WAS COLD, SO I WOULD HAVE APPRECIATED SOME HEAT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE ROSY-CHEEKED FROM PLAYING OUTSIDE ALL DAY AND HAVING FUN.
>> Steve: AND THEY DIDN'T SEEM, IN YOUR JUDGMENT, TO THINK THEY WERE MISSING ANYTHING BY
NOT HAVING ALL THE CONSUMER GOODS WE DROWN IN?
>> I THINK WHEN THEY SEE TRAVELLERS WITH GADGETS TODAY, YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT BE
INTRIGUED BY -- WELL, THEY PROBABLY ALL HAVE A CELL PHONE NOW, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
OR WHATEVER IS COMING DOWN THE PIPE.
BUT, THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE MUCH OF IT AND PROBABLY NOT MUCH OF IT IS
ARRIVING THERE, ALTHOUGH I HAVEN'T BEEN IN YEARS.
FOR ALL I KNOW, IT'S A BIG SHOPPING MECCA.
>> Steve: THERE ARE THOSE AMONG US, THE SUPER-RICH, WHO APPARENTLY NEED 50 CARS, 10
HOUSES, THOUSANDS OF PAIRS OF SHOES, ET CETERA.
WHY?
>> WELL, THE BOOK TALKS A BIT ABOUT ELTON JOHN OR NICOLAS CAGE, THEY'RE BIG, BIG SHOPPERS,
AND I HAVE A LOT OF FUN WITH THEM.
AND THEY HAVE A LOT OF FUN SHOPPING.
I THINK THEY CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES.
NICOLAS CAGE HAD NINE ROLLS ROYCES AND 15 HOUSES.
THERE'S NO EXPLANATION FOR IT OTHER THAN THEY'RE ADDICTED.
>> Steve: DOES MORE STUFF BRING YOU MORE HAPPINESS?
>> MORE STUFF COULD BRING YOU MORE HAPPINESS.
BUT THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT IT DOESN'T REALLY.
SOME STUFF, OF COURSE, MAKES US COMFORTABLE.
I MEAN, WE WANT A COMFORTABLE HOUSE AND CLOTHES THAT ARE WARM AND FOOD TO EAT.
BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW ANYONE COULD BE MORE HAPPY WITH NINE ROLLS ROYCES THAN ONE.
>> Steve: YOU DON'T HAVE NINE ROLL ROYCES?
NO, I GUESS YOU DON'T.
YOUR NEWSPAPER, THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR, WHERE I ACTUALLY WORKED ONCE UPON A TIME -- I'M
TRYING TO THINK HOW MANY YEARS AGO THAT WAS -- ABOUT 43, YIKES!
TOLD THE STORY OF A WOMAN NAMED SHARON WHO WON 10 MILLION BUCKS IN THE LOTTERY.
WHAT HAPPENED TO HER?
>> YEAH, WE WROTE THAT STORY AND CALLED IT A PENNILESS MILLIONAIRE.
SHE WON $10 MILLION.
LIKE SO MANY OTHER LOTTERY WINNERS AND I COVER A FEW OF THEM IN THE BOOK, THEY WENT
IMMEDIATELY ON A SHOPPING SPREE, BOUGHT McMANSIONS AND MORE CARS THAN THEY NEEDED AND WENT
ON TRIPS AND GAVE A LOT AWAY TO THEIR FRIENDS TOO AND HAD FUN AND THEN REALIZED JUST A LITTLE
BIT TOO LATE THAT THE BANK ACCOUNT WAS EMPTYING MORE QUICKLY THAN THEY HAD
ANTICIPATED AND THAT -- I THINK SHE HAD THREE KIDS WHO NEEDED AN EDUCATION AND SHE ALSO NEEDED A
PLACE TO HOUSE THEM, AND IN THE END, WE REVISITED HER YEARS LATER AND SHE WAS RIDING AN
ELECTRIC BIKE AND TAKING THE SUBWAY AND BACK AT WORK AND SAID, YOU KNOW, LIFE HAS MORE
MEANING WHEN YOU'RE NOT SHOPPING.
>> Steve: I DO LIKE THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T SPARE YOURSELF IN THIS BOOK BECAUSE YOU DO POINT
OUT THAT YOU BOUGHT YOURSELF ONCE SOMETHING CALLED A STORM GLASS.
WHAT IS THAT?
>> YEAH, I WAS IN ONE OF THOSE TYPICAL MUSEUM STORES, THIS ONE HAPPENED TO BE AT THE BOTANICAL
GARDENS AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK AND I WAS INTRIGUED BY IT IN THE STORE, BOUGHT IT
CARELESSLY, BROUGHT IT HOME, TOOK IT OUT OF THE PACKAGE AND THEN LOOKED AT IT AND THOUGHT,
WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH THIS?
A STORM GLASS IS SUPPOSED TO PREDICT THE WEATHER BUT WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF FANCY MACHINERY,
NONE OF WHICH I USE, I NEVER READ THE NEWSPAPER WEATHER PAGE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
I DON'T KNOW WHY I BOUGHT IT.
>> Steve: WHERE IS IT NOW?
>> IT'S STILL ON MY WALL.
I PUT IT THERE IS A REMINDER OF A MISSHOP, AS I SAY IN THE BOOK.
>> Steve: A MISSHOP, OKAY.
AND THAT'S NOT THE ONLY EXAMPLE, I HASTEN TO ADD HERE.
YOU ONCE -- I'M GOING AFTER YOU AGAIN -- YOU ONCE CAMPED OUT OVERNIGHT IN FRONT OF A STORE
WITH YOUR SON SO YOU COULD BE AMONG THE FIRST IN LINE TO BUY OF COURSE THE LATEST INCARNATION
OF SOME KIND OF VIDEO GAME AND IT WAS NOVEMBER.
SO NOT EXACTLY A BEAUTIFUL SUMMER NIGHT.
WHY DID YOU DO THAT?
>> WELL, HE ASKED ME -- HE WAS ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW, 12 OR 14 AT THE TIME AND THIS -- A PRODUCT
WAS COMING, IT WAS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SHOP-O-MANIA WHERE THERE'S A LIMITED AMOUNT OF
PRODUCT AND A LOT OF DEMAND FOR IT.
AND HE SAID, "HEY, DAD, CAN WE GET ONE OF THESE AND I NEED TO CAMP OVERNIGHT TO GET IT AT THE
BEST BUY OR WHEREVER IT WAS, A FUTURE SHOP."
I SAID YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME?
HE SAID, NO, NO, WE NEED TO GET IN LINE.
I SAID, OKAY, WE'LL GO OVER AT NIGHT, AT TEN O'CLOCK AND SEE IF THERE'S A LINEUP.
IF THERE IS, WE'LL WAIT IN LINE.
BUT I OF COURSE THOUGHT THAT WAS PREPOSTEROUS.
THERE WOULD BE NO LINEUP THERE.
SO WE DROVE OVER AND HE SAID, "I'LL JUST PUT SOME DECK CHAIRS AND SLEEPING BAGS IN THE CAR,
DAD, JUST IN CASE."
WHEN WE GOT THERE, OH, MY GOODNESS, A LINEUP WAS ALREADY BEGINNING.
HE SAID, QUICK, LET'S GET IN LINE.
>> Steve: SO YOU DID AND YOU GOT IT.
>> WE SAT THERE ALL NIGHT LONG.
AND WE GOT IT, YEAH.
>> Steve: HERE'S ANOTHER QUOTE FROM THE BOOK:
THIS IS FROM YOUR BOOK.
AND I PUT THAT ON THE RECORD BECAUSE YOU AND I BOTH KNOW SOME FAIRLY RESPECTABLE PEOPLE WHO
HAVE OVERSHOPPED.
CAN I SHOW YOU AN EXAMPLE?
LOOK AT THE MONITOR HERE IN THE STUDIO.
>> WHAT WAS JESUS CHRIST REALLY LIKE?
WAS HE GENTLE, MEEK AND MILD, AS THE OLD HYMN HAS IT?
HE WAS NOTHING OF THE SORT.
WAS HE THE PRINCE OF PEACE?
NOT IF YOU BELIEVE HIS OWN WORDS.
AND WAS HE AS FOND AS HIS MOTHER AS POPULAR TRADITION SUGGESTS?
>> Steve: NOW, THAT IS ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S GREATEST-EVER WRITERS AND BROADCASTERS.
DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS?
>> I CERTAINLY DO.
>> Steve: WHO IS THAT?
>> THAT'S MY FATHER.
>> Steve: YES, THAT WAS THE GREAT PIERRE BERTON, YOUR DAD, WHO YOU TELL US IN THE BOOK HAD
150 BOW TIES AND 50 PAIR OF CUFFLINKS.
HOW COME?
>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
I SUPPOSE HIS BOW TIE WAS A SIGNATURE, SO HE NEEDED A LOT OF THEM, ALTHOUGH 150, C'MON!
THE CUFFLINKS I THINK HE JUST COLLECTED.
HE HAD A MILLION OF COLLECTIONS.
HE AND MY MOTHER HAD A COLLECTION OF MASKS FROM AROUND THE WORLD WHICH WERE TERRIFYING
TO ME AS A CHILD.
BUT, YEAH, THE HOUSE, IT WAS A CHAOTIC HOUSE THAT WAS FULL OF A LOT OF STUFF.
>> Steve: WAS HE AN OVER SHOPPER >> I DON'T THINK HE HAD TIME TO BE MUCH OF A SHOPPER
BUT HE INDULGED HIMSELF AND I'M SURE HE HAD ALOT OF STUFF HE REGRETTED.
>> Steve: THERE'S THIS FUNNY EXPRESSION THAT SHOPPING IS SORT OF RETAIL THERAPY.
SOME PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY QUITE AFRAID OF THAT RETAIL THERAPY.
WHY IS THAT?
>> I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE NURTURED BY STUFF AND THE CONTINUOUS FLOW OF IT
THROUGH THE HOUSE OR THROUGH THEIR PERSON HELPS MAKE A BORING DAY BRIGHTER.
AND I KNOW THAT WE ALL FEEL THAT.
EVEN I FEEL THAT WHEN I ACQUIRE SOMETHING, LIKE THE STORM GLASS, FOR EXAMPLE.
IT'S NOT TILL YOU GET IT HOME YOU GO, OOH, I HAVE BUYER'S REMORSE ALREADY AND IT'S NOT
EVEN FOUR HOURS.
>> Steve: HOW MUCH SHOPPING IS DONE TO KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES, AS THE EXPRESSION GOES?
>> WELL, THAT IS A HUGE THING.
30 OR 40 OR 50 PERCENT OF IT.
WE WANT TO -- WE WANT STATUS.
WE WANT TO BE PART OF A GROUP.
WE WANT TO BE PART OF A COMMUNITY THAT HAS IT.
AND WE WANT TO BE PART OF THAT CONVERSATION.
>> Steve: IS THAT NECESSARILY THEREFORE A BAD THING?
>> SHOPPING IS NOT A BAD THING.
SHOPPING IS A GOOD THING.
SHOPPING, AS I SAY IN THE BOOK -- I MEAN, WITHOUT SHOPPING, WE WOULDN'T HAVE MATH
AND LANGUAGES AND INNOVATION AND EXPLORATION AND ALL KINDS OF GREAT STUFF.
BUT OVERSHOPPING, YOU KNOW, ONE ROLLS ROYCE, MAYBE IT'S GOOD.
THAT'S DEBATABLE.
BUT NINE?
>> Steve: PROBABLY DON'T NEED NINE.
DONALD TRUMP'S TREASURY SECRETARY WAS A GUY NAMED STEVE MNUCHIN.
AND HIS WIFE LOUISE LINTON ONCE POSTED A SHOT OF HERSELF GETTING OFF AIR FORCE ONE AND THIS WAS
THE COPY THAT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS -- I DON'T KNOW -- WAS IT AN INSTAGRAM POST?
I THINK IT WAS.
HERE WE GO.
THERE IT IS.
GREAT #DAY TRIP TO #KENTUCKY, LINTON WROTE.
#NICEST PEOPLE #BEAUTIFUL #COUNTRYSIDE HASHTAG -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF PANTS THESE
ARE #ROLANDMOURET PANTS -- IS THAT HOW YOU SAY THAT?
#TOMFORD SUNNIES, #HERMESSCARF #VALENTINOROCKSTUDHEELS #VALENTINO #USA
MY QUESTION IS: WHO DOES THAT IN ONE OF THE POOREST STATES IN THE UNITED STATES?
>> YEAH, YEAH.
WELL, SHE TOOK A LOT OF HEAT FOR THAT AT THE TIME, AS YOU MAY RECALL, AND I THINK THIS IS
STATUS GONE AWRY, TRYING TO IMPRESS EVERYONE WITH WHAT YOU'RE WEARING AND WHAT YOU OWN
OR WHAT YOU HAVE OR YOUR SO-CALLED GOOD TASTE.
SO MANY OF US IN A MODERN WORLD ARE SIMPLY NOT AWARE OF WHAT PEOPLE DON'T HAVE.
>> Steve: I MEAN, YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT BEING MARRIED TO A MULTIMILLIONAIRE, AS SHE
WAS, AND SHOWING UP IN AIR FORCE ONE, AS SHE DID, THAT YOU WOULDN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO
BE -- WHY WOULD YOU LORD IT OVER PEOPLE LIKE THAT?
I STILL AM -- >> IT'S NEVER ENOUGH, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE CONCLUSIONS OF THE
BOOK.
IT'S NEVER ENOUGH.
>> Steve: THIS ALL MIGHT BE AMUSING AND A LOT OF THE BOOK IS VERY FUNNY, ACTUALLY, AS YOU
READ IT, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT TOO MUCH OVERSHOPPING MAY IN FACT BE KILLING OUR PLANET.
DO YOU BELIEVE IT IS?
>> I CERTAINLY DO BELIEVE IT IS.
IN FACT, THAT'S THE THEME OF THE BOOK.
IT'S OFTEN SILLY BUT ALWAYS SERIOUS, THIS BOOK.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK OF THE AMOUNT OF GARBAGE, JUST SIMPLY GARBAGE THAT WE'RE SHIPPING TO
THE DEVELOPING WORLD OR GARBAGE THAT'S FILLING UP OUR OWN SUBURBS OR RURAL AREAS OR --
>> Steve: LANDFILL SITES.
>> -- LANDFILL SITES.
AS I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, THERE ARE LANDFILL AVALANCHES IN SOME OF THESE COUNTRIES WHERE
WE'VE SHIPPED SO MUCH GARBAGE AND PEOPLE ARE CLIMBING THROUGH IT LOOKING FOR STUFF.
THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN MAKES IT FAR TOO EASY TO THROW STUFF OUT AND FAR TOO EASY TO BUY IT.
SO WE'VE REALLY GOT TO TWIST THAT AROUND A BIT.
>> Steve: WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE, THAT TWISTING AROUND?
WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING?
>> I THINK THE FIRST THING WE COULD START WITH IS MUNICIPALITIES SHOULD START
CHARGING MORE FOR GARBAGE.
SO IN MOST MUNICIPALITIES, ALTHOUGH NOT IN ALL OF THEM, A FEW PROGRESSIVE ONES CHARGE PER
BAG.
BUT MOST OF US GET TO PUT ANYTHING TO THE CURB FOR FREE ONCE A WEEK.
AND SO THEREFORE WHEN WE'RE BUYING STUFF, WE'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT HOW TO GET RID OF IT.
WE KNOW WE CAN JUST DRAG IT TO THE CURB AND IT'LL BE GONE IN A WEEK.
IF WE MADE IT EXPENSIVE TO TAKE IT TO THE STREET, WE WOULD, ONE, STOP BUYING IT, OR, TWO, TELL
MANUFACTURERS WE DON'T WANT ALL THE PACKAGING.
AND THAT'S A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THE PACKAGING, NOT NECESSARILY THE STUFF.
>> Steve: RIGHT.
CONSUMERS HAVE POWER.
WHY ARE WE NOT EXERCISING IT MORE?
>> EXACTLY.
BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TO.
IT'S TOO EASY.
>> Steve: NOW, YOU SAID IN THE MIDST OF THAT FIRST ANSWER THERE, WE CAN PUT OUT AS MANY
BAGS BY THE CURB AS WE WANT FOR FREE.
OTHERS WOULD ARGUE WE ACTUALLY PAY FOR THE RIGHT TO DO THAT THROUGH OUR PROPERTY TAXES.
NOT THE CASE?
>> NO, EXACTLY, WE PAY FOR IT THROUGH OUR PROPERTY TAXES.
BUT WHY NOT LOWER OUR PROPERTY TAXES AND INCREASE THE PRICE OF GARBAGE DISPOSAL?
THEREFORE, EVERYONE WINS, RIGHT?
IF YOU WANT TO PUT OUT MORE GARBAGE, PUT OUT MORE GARBAGE, BUT YOU'LL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
NOW WE'RE ALL PAYING THE SAME AMOUNT SO IT DOESN'T DO ME ANY FINANCIAL GOOD TO REDUCE MY
FOOTPRINT, WHICH IS WHAT I TRY TO DO.
>> Steve: NO INCENTIVE TO BE SMARTER.
>> EXACTLY.
>> Steve: EVERYONE FROM JESUS CHRIST TO RABBI HILLEL TO HENRY DAVID THOREAU HAS SAID SOMETHING
ALONG THE LINES OF: BE ON GUARD AGAINST COVETIVENESS FOR ONE'S LIFE DOES NOT CONSIST IN THE
ABUNDANCE OF HIS POSSESSIONS.
IN OTHER WORDS, THIS HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED WISDOM, WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING, FOR A VERY, VERY
LONG TIME.
WHY DO WE REFUSE TO GET THE MESSAGE?
>> BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE STUFF.
[LAUGHTER] PEOPLE LIKE STUFF.
WE CAN'T STOP THAT.
WE CAN ONLY TRY AND THINK ABOUT IT MORE AND SAY: HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY NEED?
AND THERE'S A LOT OF PASSAGES IN THE BOOK, AS YOU KNOW, ABOUT PEOPLE WHO COLLECT STUFF.
JAY LENO HAS A HUNDRED CARS AND TOM HANKS COLLECTED 250 TYPEWRITERS AND CORBIN BERENSON
FOR SOME REASON HAS 8,000 SNOW GLOBES.
>> Steve: 8,000 SNOW GLOBES.
>> IT'S A HUMAN THING.
WE ALL HAVE A LITTLE COLLECTION.
I DON'T THINK I DO, BUT I HAVE BOOKS, AS I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, I HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS AND
I STILL HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS EVEN THOUGH I'M SHUFFLING THEM OUT OF THE HOUSE REGULARLY.
>> Steve: HAVE WE GOT OURSELVES INTO A SITUATION, THOUGH, WHERE SO MUCH OF OUR
ECONOMIC WELL-BEING DEPENDS ON PEOPLE WHO SHOP TOO MUCH?
>> IT DOES, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS AROUND THE WORLD SAY: IS YOUR LIFE BETTER
NOW THAN IT WAS FOUR YEARS AGO?
CAN YOU DO MORE SHOPPING?
DO YOU HAVE MORE STUFF?
AND INDEED, RETAIL SALES ARE ONE OF THE LEADING ECONOMIC INDICATORS.
SO THERE'S NO WAY AROUND THAT YET, ALTHOUGH, AS I SAY IN THE BOOK, WHO WAS IT, DOUGLAS
COUPLAND SAYS THERE'S NO SHOPPING IN STAR TREK, WHICH IS A GREAT QUOTE.
>> Steve: HE'S RIGHT ABOUT THAT.
REMEMBER WHAT GEORGE BUSH SAID AFTER 9/11?
ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS HE SAID?
>> HE SAID GO ABOUT YOUR DAILY BUSINESS, IS THE BEST WAY TO BEAT THE TERRORISTS, WHICH WAS
OF COURSE SHOPPING.
>> Steve: GO SHOPPING, YEAH.
HE BASICALLY SAID GO SHOPPING AS A CURE FOR TERRORISM.
>> YEAH.
>> Steve: WE KNEW WHAT HE MEANT, RIGHT?
WE KNEW WHAT HE MEANT.
DO YOU THINK IT HAS TO BE THIS WAY?
>> I DON'T THINK WE'RE EVER GOING TO STOP SHOPPING.
I THINK PEOPLE LIKE STUFF.
I DO THINK THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY EXACTLY.
I THINK THAT WE CAN TEMPER OUR DESIRES, UNDERSTAND OUR OBSESSION WITH POSSESSION.
I THINK THAT WE CAN BE TOLD THAT WE CAN'T KEEP THROWING THIS STUFF OUT.
AND I THINK THE ONLY WAY TO GET OUT OF THIS, AS I SAID EARLIER, IS TO MAKE THAT EXPENSIVE, AND
IT'S GOING TO BE EXPENSIVE.
WE DON'T REALLY HAVE TO LOBBY GOVERNMENTS FOR THIS.
THEY'RE GOING TO REALIZE IT ON THEIR OWN.
>> Steve: YOU SAY WE CAN DO IT, BUT WILL WE DO IT?
>> I THINK THAT WE WILL.
I'M OPTIMISTIC.
I BELIEVE THAT THE WORLD WILL GET BETTER.
THAT THERE STILL WILL BE SHOPPING.
THERE WON'T BE SO MUCH OF IT OR IT WILL BE DONE IN A DIFFERENT WAY OR IT WILL BE MORE
SUSTAINABLE OR IT WILL BE IN A CIRCULAR RATHER THAN A LINEAR FASHION.
THE LIFE OF A GOOD.
>> Steve: I APPRECIATE YOUR DESIRE TO BE OPTIMISTIC, BUT I'M GOING TO BRING YOU CRASHING DOWN
TO EARTH NOW BY SAYING THAT IF WE DO WHAT SOME PEOPLE SUGGEST, MEANING THAT -- LET'S TAKE THE
LAWNMOWER.
THERE ARE, LET'S SAY, A NEIGHBOURHOOD OF 20 HOUSES.
PROBABLY PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THEM ARE GOING TO HAVE THEIR OWN LAWN MOWERS, EVEN THOUGH THAT
99.9 PERCENT OF THE TIME ALL THOSE DIFFERENT LAWNMOWERS ARE GOING TO SIT IN THE GARAGE AND
DO NOTHING THEY ARE USED SO RARELY,IF WE DID, AS MANY PEOPLE SUGGESTED AND THAT IS, LET'S
SAY, POOLED OUR RESOURCES, WE'RE GOING TO BUY ONE LAWNMOWER FOR THE WHOLE NEIGHBOURHOOD.
YOU CUT THE GRASS ON MONDAY, YOU CUT YOURS ON TUESDAY, YOURS ON WEDNESDAY, ET CETERA.
THAT WAY WE CAN ALL GET AWAY WITH ONE LAWNMOWER INSTEAD OF 20.
THAT MIGHT MAKE MORE ENVIRONMENTAL SENSE.
IT COULD ALSO PUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO MAKE LAWNMOWERS OUT OF BUSINESS.
HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT CONUNDRUM?
>> I ONCE BELONGED TO A TOOL LIBRARY AND I ACTUALLY BORROWED A LAWNMOWER EVERY WEEK FOR A
WHILE.
IT LASTED ONLY THREE YEARS AND THEN I WAS STUCK WITHOUT A LAWNMOWER AND WITHOUT NEIGHBOURS
CUTTING MY GRASS.
BUT I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO GET THERE.
YOU KNOW, BOOK LIBRARIES ARE THE BEST EXAMPLE, RIGHT?
READING A BOOK ONCE.
SOME OF US REFER TO BOOKS REGULARLY BUT, YOU KNOW, MOST OF US READ THE NOVEL AND THEN DON'T
NEED IT AGAIN.
WE CAN SHARE THESE THINGS BETTER.
WHAT IT WILL DO FOR THE ECONOMY, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT THE ECONOMY HAS SUFFERED WORSE SHOCKS IN THE PAST, JUST MOST RECENTLY THE PANDEMIC IS A
GOOD EXAMPLE AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER ONES.
WE'LL EMERGE FROM IT AS A DIFFERENT WORLD IN SORT OF A DIFFERENT CONSUMER SOCIETY AND
IT'LL ALL BE FINE.
>> Steve: I GUESS THE LAST QUESTION IS: DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT PEOPLE TO SHOP FOR A BOOK
CALLED SHOP-O-MANIA?
>> AS I SAY IN THE BOOK, A FRIEND WHO READ THE MANUSCRIPT SAYS WHY DON'T YOU CALL IT
"DON'T BUY THIS BOOK."
I HYPOCRITECALLY TOSSED THAT ONE OUT.
BUT YA I THINK THERE IS A GOOD MESSAGE FOR ALL OF US TO BE HAD IN THE BOOK
ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT AND POSSESSION AND CONSUMERISM.
>> Steve: IT IS A DELIGHTFUL READ.
"SHOP-O-MANIA: OUR OBSESSION WITH POSSESSION."
AND IT'S BROUGHT PAUL BERTON TO OUR STUDIO TONIGHT.
PAUL, THANKS A LOT.
>> THANKS, STEVE.