I AM A BARBARIAN AT
HEART, WHEN I SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS I PERCEIVE IT AS AN ATTACK
ON US.
I GREW UP IN THE WEST, I HAVE BEEN TO PARIS MANY TIMES, I
PERCEIVE IT AS AN ATTACK ON US, SO I WANT TO ATTACK BACK.
THAT
IS MY NATURE.
THEY KILLED US, I WANT TO KILL THEM.
LUCKILY I
HOPE A SECOND PART OF MY NATURE SAYS WAIT, LET'S THINK THIS
THROUGH.
IT IS AN INTERESTING MOMENT IN TIME BECAUSE WE DON'T
KNOW WHO DID IT RIGHT NOW.
IT IS SO EARLY ON.
>>THE POLICE ARE EVEN SAYING THEY ARE NOT SURE THAT THE
ATTACKS ARE COORDINATED.
I THINK THEY ARE BEING OVERLY SAFE.
>>I'M NOT HAVING THAT CONVERSATION.
>>I'M JUST SAYING THAT IS WHAT THE POLICE ARE SAYING.
>>NO WAY.
LET'S ASSUME FOR A SECOND THAT IT COULD BE --
USUALLY TWO SETS OF PEOPLE DO IT, USUALLY FUNDAMENTALISTS,
EITHER FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS OR RIGHT-WING ZEALOTS.
OFTENTIMES
IT IS IN THE U.S. -- MOST OF THE TIME IT IS RIGHT-WING ZEALOTS IN
THE U.S., SHOOTINGS OF JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTERS, BLACK CHURCHES,
ETC.
IN EUROPE IT IS USUALLY MORE MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS.
BUT AGAIN IN THE CASE OF NORWAY THERE WAS THE RIGHT-WING
GUY WHO KILLED ALL THOSE PEOPLE.
>>THE COORDINATED NATURE, THE FACT THAT IT IS SO MANY, OF
COURSE WE DON'T KNOW, BUT THERE IS NO REASON TO SPECULATE IN A
SENSE, BUT THIS IS THE TIME WHEN WE ARE TALKING, SO IT WOULD
BE SURPRISING IF THEY WERE RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS WHO
HAD ORGANIZED THIS THING.
IT WOULD BE A NEW THING.
>>I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU, OF COURSE, BECAUSE WE ARE LOOKING
AT THE HISTORY OF ATTACKS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN EUROPE.
BUT IF
IT WERE RIGHT-WING FUNDAMENTALISTS, AS HAS HAPPENED
IN THE PAST, WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE FIND OUT WHERE THEY
ARE AND THEN BOMB THAT AREA?
NOBODY WOULD SUGGEST THAT.
WE
WOULD NOT THINK MAYBE THEY ARE NEAR COLOGNE NOW, LET'S GO BOMB
THERE.
OR MARSEILLE.
OR IF THEY CAME FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY
NEARBY, LET'S BOMB STUTTGART.
NOBODY WOULD CONSIDER THAT.
>>THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT, BECAUSE FOR EXAMPLE WITH THE
DYLANN ROOF SHOOTING, PEOPLE WERE QUICK TO CALL THAT A HATE
CRIME AND IT WAS NOT TERMED AS A TERRORIST ATTACK.
BUT IN HIS
MANIFESTO IT WAS CLEAR THAT HE SATISFIED THE CRITERIA FOR
TERRORISM.
SO THE POINT YOU ARE MAKING IS THAT YES, IF IT IS A
RIGHT-WING ATTACK IT TENDS TO BE A HATE CRIME.
>>OR MENTAL ILLNESS, AND DON'T IDENTIFY THAT IT IS RIGHT-WING
AT ALL.
>> BUT IF THERE IS ANY SENSE THAT IT IS MUSLIM -- WITH THE
CHATTANOOGA SHOOTINGS, WE ARE QUICK TO ATTRIBUTE IT TO ISLAM,
THAT HE WAS ISIS INSPIRED.
HE WAS A MENTALLY ILL PERSON WHO
HAPPENED TO BE A MUSLIM, BUT WE ARE QUICK TO IDENTIFY IT AS
TERRORISM.
THEN WE GO IN HEAVY AND HARD AND WE BOMB.
>>I THINK IT IS OBVIOUS WHY WE HAVE THE BLINDERS THAT RESULT IN
THAT WEIRD DOUBLE STANDARD, IT IS THAT IF IN PARIS IT TURNS OUT
THAT IT IS MUSLIMS, WE WILL SAY OKAY, WE WILL IDENTIFY WHAT
COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM OR WHICH EXPAT GROUP IN PARIS THEY CAME
FROM, AND THAT CULTURE PRODUCED THIS.
IT ALLOWED OR ENCOURAGED A
LEVEL OF HATE THAT LEADS TO VIOLENCE, LET'S BOMB IT.
THE
SAME THING IS HAPPENING IN OUR SOCIETY.
WE WILL TALK ABOUT
LATER IN THE HOUR, THREE ADDITIONAL COLLEGES HAVE HAD
THREATS AGAINST AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDENTS.
SOCIETY, CULTURE, SET
UP A LEVEL OF HATRED FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS, IT IS JUST
THAT IT IS OUR CULTURE, AND WE CAN'T JUST BOMB OURSELVES.
BUT IT IS THE BLINDERS OF NOT IDENTIFYING THE LINK
BETWEEN SOCIETY AND VIOLENT OUTCOMES THAT IS EVERY BIT
AS REAL IN AMERICA AS IT IS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
>>I WANT TO BE CLEAR, WE ARE NOT TRYING TO BLAME PEOPLE, WE ARE
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS A SMART STRATEGY SO WE DON'T HAVE
THIS AGAIN.
SO WE CAN PROTECT OURSELVES.
IF WE FIND OUT IT IS
A RIGHT-WING GROUP OUT OF MARSEILLE OR A LEFT-WING GROUP,
WE DON'T KNOW.
MAKE UP SOMETHING.
BUT LEFT-WING GROUPS
HAVE NOT DONE ATTACKS LIKE THIS IN EUROPE OR THE U.S., THAT IS
WHY WE ARE USING A POSSIBLE RIGHT-WING ZEALOT.
BEN'S POINT,
DON'T GO CRAZY, WE THINK IT IS PROBABLY MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS
BECAUSE OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST.
BUT IF IT WAS A
RIGHT-WING GROUP OUT OF MARSEILLE, NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT
MIND WOULD SAY LET'S GO BOMB MARSEILLE.
THEY WOULD THINK THAT
WAS FUNDAMENTALLY STUPID.
WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU PUNISH OTHER
PEOPLE IN MARSEILLE FOR THE CRIMES OF THE ZEALOTS THAT HAD
NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ELSE IN MARSEILLE?
THAT WOULD BE
INSANE, YOU WOULD BE LOCKED AWAY IF YOU SUGGESTED BOMBING THE
CITIZENS OF THAT CITY.
>>OR EVEN CRACKING DOWN ON THEIR RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES IN THE
COUNTRY, OR WHATEVER OTHER SORT OF SANCTIONS YOU WOULD HAVE
AGAINST THEM.
>>IF THAT IS INSANE, PERHAPS IT IS EQUALLY INSANE IF WE
SUGGEST BOMBING IS THE ANSWER TO STOPPING THIS IN A DIFFERENT
COUNTRY.
THEY WERE INSPIRED OR THEY WERE FROM ISIS, SO LET'S GO
BOMB DAMASCUS?
WAIT, SHOULDN'T YOU SAY THE SAME THING?
WHAT DID THE PEOPLE OF DAMASCUS DO?
>>WHAT IS CRITICAL FOR ME AT LEAST, THAT HAS HELPED ME
UNDERSTAND HOW WE REACT DIFFERENTLY TO THIS, AND IT GOES
TO THE ULTIMATE MEANINGLESSNESS OF WHAT THE WORD TERRORISM HAS
BECOME -- IT IS HOW THIS MAKES US FEEL, IS HOW WE REACT.
AND WE
FEEL DIFFERENTLY WHEN PEOPLE LIKE US ARE KILLED.
FOR THOSE OF
US -- AND THERE ARE GRADATIONS OF BEING OPEN.
THERE ARE
TERRORIST ATTACKS LITERALLY EVERY DAY IN SYRIA AND/OR IRAQ.
EVERY DAY PEOPLE GO TO BUY FRUIT AND THEY GET BLOWN UP.
FIVE
TIMES A WEEK.
ALL THE TIME.
THAT IS TERRORISM, AND I SUPPOSE IT
GETS REPORTED AS SUCH, BUT WE DON'T REALLY FEEL IT.
I DON'T
REALLY FEEL IT AS TERRORISM, AND THAT IS A GIGANTIC SHORTCOMING
IN MY SOUL, BUT IT IS HOW I AM.
>> IT IS FUNDAMENTAL TO HUMANITY, I THINK.
>>I HOPE SO, I HOPE THERE IS NOT SOMETHING WRONG -- BUT IF YOU
PERSONALIZE IT, WHEN I SEE A MOM CRYING, THEN IT STARTS TO
CHANGE.
THAT IS WHY IT IS CRITICAL TO SEE THAT STUFF, I
THINK.
HERE BECAUSE IT IS THE WEST AND BECAUSE THEY ARE AN
ALLY AND WE THINK OF PARISIANS AS LIKE US, WE REACT
DIFFERENTLY.
I THINK THAT WE MOSTLY FELT THAT WAY, MANY OF
US, ABOUT DYLANN ROOF BECAUSE ALTHOUGH THESE PEOPLE WERE BLACK
AND OBVIOUSLY THEREFORE NOT SPECIFICALLY LIKE ME, TO ME THAT
WAS LIKE, THEY ARE AMERICANS.
THESE PEOPLE ARE LIKE ME, I
LIVED IN CHARLESTON, I HAVE BEEN IN THAT CHURCH.
WHATEVER.
YOU
DRAW YOUR CONNECTION TO IT.
BUT IT IS OBVIOUSLY -- THERE IS A
SIGNIFICANT FLAW IF WE THROW AROUND THE WORD TERRORISM AND
HAVE IT MEAN SOMETHING, WHEN WE SAY TERRORISM WE RESPOND TO IT
DIFFERENTLY THAN A HATE CRIME, BUT IF WE ARE BASING IT ON THIS
SORT OF WHAT WOULD APPEAR TO BE RANDOM EMOTIONAL REACTION THAT
THE REST OF US HAVE, IT JUST GOES TO YOUR POINT.
OUR REACTIONS TO
IT ARE INSANE, WE HAVE TO BE SMART ABOUT HOW TO RESPOND.
>>I HOPE AUTHORITIES IN FRANCE TODAY ARE NOT THINKING, WHO DO
WE KILL -- ALTHOUGH WE WILL GET TO THAT.
>>I'M SURE THEY WILL.
>>BUT THEY SIT DOWN AND THINK, HOW IN THE WORLD DO WE SOLVE
THIS?
WHO DID THIS, WHO PUT THEM UP TO IT, AND HOW DID THEY
ORCHESTRATE THIS?
WE HAVE GOT TO PUT ALL OF OUR ENERGY INTO THAT
FIRST, AND THEN FIGURE OUT HOW DO WE GET THEM.
PLEASE, DON'T BE
BLIND IN YOUR ANGER.
WE ARE ALL ANGRY, BUT IT DOES NOT HELP, IT
HURTS.
IT HURTS OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE, WHO THEN TURN AGAINST
YOU.
IN THIS MOMENT FEELING RAGE IS NORMAL, BUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE
DOING IS THINKING HOW TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SOLVE THIS, SO WE CAN
HAVE AN ANSWER THAT STOPS IT.
>>WHOEVER DID THIS DOES NOT WANT THERE TO BE A THOUGHTFUL, FAIRLY
TIME-CONSUMING, SMART RESPONSE.
THE POINT OF TERRORISM, AND WHAT
I FEEL TODAY AND I'M SURE WHAT MANY OTHER PEOPLE FEEL, IS SOME
DEGREE OF FEAR.
THEY WENT TO DINNER, THEY WENT TO A CONCERT,
THEY GOT SHOT OR THEIR LIVES ARE RUINED FOREVER, FOR SOME
SURVIVORS.
SO IT WORKS, YOU ARE AFRAID.
THAT'S IT.
>>TO ELLIOTT'S COMPARISON TO DYLANN ROOF, HE WANTED TO START
A RACE WAR, HE IS A TERRORIST BY THE CONVENTIONAL DEFINITION
BECAUSE HE DID IT FOR POLITICAL REASONS AND WANTED TO INSPIRE
FEAR IN BLACKS AND WANTED THEM TO STRIKE BACK, HE WANTED
EVERYBODY TO STRIKE BACK DISPROPORTIONATELY SO THAT IT
WOULD -- THEN WHITES WOULD HAVE TO STRIKE BACK, AND IT WOULD
START A RACE WAR.
DYLANN ROOF IS NOT THAT DIFFERENT FROM ISIS IN
THAT SENSE, BECAUSE ISIS ALSO WANTS A DISPROPORTIONATE
REACTION.
THE MORE YOU BOMB THEIR BASES, THE MORE THAT ALL
THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE, NOT JUST THEM BUT THE LARGER
POPULATION, GOES, I GUESS THEY ARE ATTACKING ME SO I GUESS
AMERICA OR FRANCE OR THE WEST HAS DECLARED WAR ON ME, NOT ON
ISIS.
SO I GUESS I WILL JOIN ISIS IN THEIR WAR AGAINST THEM.
AND ISIS THINKS, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
SO DON'T HELP THE
DYLANN ROOFS OF THE WORLD, DON'T HELP THE ISIS OF THE WORLD,
LET'S BE SMART, AND ONCE WE FIGURE OUT WHO DID IT, I AM
ON YOUR SIDE.
GO GET THEM.
>> AND WE DON'T HAVE MUCH INFORMATION, IT IS STILL
COMING OUT, BY MONDAY I AM SURE WE WILL HAVE MORE.
>>GO GET THEM BECAUSE -- GO GET THEM AS IN THE PROSECUTION OF A
CRIME?
I DON'T MEAN ARREST THEM, I DON'T MIND KILLING THEM,
NOBODY MINDS KILLING THEM.
BUT I MEAN, LIKE, WHAT YOU JUST SAID,
IN A SENSE, PROVES YOUR INITIAL POINT.
GO GET THEM?
WHERE?
THEY WILL BE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
I'M ALL FOR GOING TO GET THEM --
>>THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.
LET'S TAKE THE TIME TO DIVE INTO
THAT QUESTION.
HOW DO WE GET THE GUYS WHO DID THE TERRORIST
ATTACKS ONCE WE FIGURE OUT WHO IT IS?
I DON'T MEAN, LIKE, WE
FIGURED OUT IT IS ISIS AND THAT PARTICULAR BRANCH CAME FROM
RAMADI, BOMB THE CRAP OUT OF RAMADI.
IT WILL BE
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, YOU TURN THE PEOPLE AGAINST YOU, YOU START A
BIGGER WAR WITH MORE BOMBS.
REPUBLICANS WILL SAY HERE IN THE
U.S., THIS IS NOT A CRIMINAL MATTER, YOU SHOULD NOT JUST TRY
TO GET ARREST WARRANTS.
WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?
YOU WANT ME
TO FIND THE GUY AND WHAT, DECAPITATE HIM ON THE SPOT?
THE
WAY I FRAME IT IS, LET'S BRING THEM TO JUSTICE.
THAT MEANS IF I
HAVE FOUND WHO IT IS THAT HAS DONE IT, I WILL GO GET THE GUY,
MEANING I WILL ARREST HIM.
IF HE FIRES, GONE.
>>DEAD OR ALIVE.
>>OF COURSE, THEN YOU UNLEASH.
BUT YOU UNLEASH ON THEM.
THEY
ARE IN A TOUGH SPOT.
THIS IS NOT EASY.
IT TURNS OUT THE GUYS WHO
ORDERED IT, NOT THE GUYS WHO CARRIED OUT, BUT ORDERED IT, ARE
IN RAMADI.
JESUS CHRIST, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
YOU CAN'T
ARREST THEM, AND YOU CAN'T BOMB RAMADI, IT'S
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE TO OUR INTERESTS, AND WILL LEAD TO MORE
ATTACKS IN LONDON, PARIS, ETC.
THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE SPECIAL
FORCES FOR.
THIS IS AN INTERESTING POSITION FOR
PROGRESSIVES TO TAKE BECAUSE I THINK IN CONVENTIONAL WISDOM,
PROGRESSIVES DON'T WANT TO USE FORCE.
NO, NO, WE WANT TO USE
SMART FORCE.
A BOMBING IS DUMB, BECAUSE THEN YOU HIT CIVILIANS,
YOU HIT INNOCENT PEOPLE AND YOU TURN THEM AGAINST YOU.
SPECIAL
FORCES OFTENTIMES GET THE JOB DONE SURGICALLY.
THEY DID IT
WITH BIN LADEN, WE CAPTURED THE TOP TERRORIST IN SOMALIA,
SWOOPED IN, GOT HIM, SWOOPED OUT.
IT WAS AN AMAZING JOB AND I
COMMENDED THAT GREATLY.
DO YOU RISK MORE SPECIAL FORCES LIVES IF YOU
DROP THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE MIDDLE OF RAMADI?
OF COURSE YOU
DO, I'M NOT UNAWARE OF THAT.
BUT THEY ARE SPECIAL FORCES, THAT IS
THEIR JOB.
IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO USE THEM FOR THAT, THEN DON'T
HAVE THEM.
JUST HAVE A BUNCH OF BOMBS AND LIVE WITH THE FACT
THAT WE WILL BE IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF WAR AND A CONTINUAL
CYCLE OF VIOLENCE.
THEIR INNONCENTS, OUR INNOCENTS.
I
DON'T WANT THAT, THAT IS WHY WE HAVE SPECIAL FORCES.
IF IT
DOESN'T WORK, DROP THEM IN AGAIN.
YOU SAY, WE WILL LOSE
SOME PEOPLE.
WE LOST A HELL OF A LOT MORE TROOPS IN IRAQ WHEN WE
INVADED AND WE LOST 5000 GUYS.
>>THE DANGER OF DRONES AND BOMBING, OF COURSE, IS THAT YOU
DON'T HAVE TO MAKE THOSE ARE DECISIONS.
AND I THINK THAT ENDS
UP HURTING US.
I AGREE WITH YOU, I THINK LIKELY, WHO KNOWS, BUT
WE ARE LIKELY HEADED TO WHERE THAT SMART DECISION WILL BE AN
ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE, WHATEVER IT IS, 500 OR
1000 PEOPLE THERE READY TO ACT ALMOST LIKE A MILITARY POLICE
FORCE.
THESE ARE CRIMINALS, THEY ARE THERE, WE HAVE TO GO GET
THEM.
BECAUSE WE KNOW THE IRAQI ARMY ISN'T GOING TO GET THEM.
>>I DON'T NEED THEM STATIONED ON THE GROUND 24/7.
TURKEY IS AN
ALLY, IT IS NOT THAT LONG A FLIGHT FROM TURKEY TO RAMADI.
AND I AM MAKING UP RAMADI, OF COURSE, IN THIS HYPOTHETICAL.
BRING THEM IN, BRING THEM OUT.
IT IS SUPER DANGEROUS, I AM NOT
UNAWARE.
YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK A SINGLE AMERICAN LIFE?
YOU ARE RISKING MORE AMERICAN AND FRENCH LIVES WHEN YOU
DO THE DUMB BOMBING.