Prosecutors at the Department
of Justice
want to hear from former
Vice President Mike Pence.
The DOJ has reached out to Pence's team.
They want him to testify
as part of the January 6th
criminal probe.
A source tells CNN
that Pence is open to testifying,
at least to some extent.
We know the former VP has refused to talk
to the House Select
Committee investigating the same thing.
But it appears the distinction
between a legislative investigation
and a criminal one
could make a real difference for Pence
in quite a few recent media appearances
and meetings with Republican donors.
Pence has tried to thread the needle,
criticizing the events of January
six while trying to maintain some support
from former President Trump's base.
Testifying may make that even harder,
given how much the former president
has portrayed
cooperation with the DOJ
as a litmus test for loyalty.
My next guest knows what loyalty
to Trump means in this Republican Party.
Former acting White
House Chief of Staff
Mick Mulvaney
thanks so much for joining me, sir.
Thanks, Casey.
So how do you think that
the former vice
president cooperating
with a special counsel I mean,
how does
that change the potential 2024 landscape
from a political perspective?
And does it
change the criminal landscape
for the former president?
Two different questions.
I think it does
change the criminal landscape
a little bit.
Mike Pence is a very credible guy.
There's no question about it.
And your introduction,
you hit the nail right on the head.
He does see a difference
between the
January six committee and legislative
sort of a political show trial
and the investigation,
a criminal investigation
by the Department of Justice,
Mike, will take that type
of inquiry extraordinarily seriously.
So it would not surprise me.
I'm reading some of the same things
that you are
these indicating that he's hinting
that he's going to testify
or is willing to at least
talk to the Department of Justice.
That would change things,
I think,
for Donald Trump criminally,
just because
Mike Pence, again, on the very,
very inside
talking to the president
on the day of the riots.
Again,
I don't know if there's any evidence
yet that the president did
anything criminal on that particular day.
But if there is, Mike Pence
might be the source
of some of that evidence.
So it's a big deal,
I think, for the vice
president of the United States
to talk to the Department of Justice
about the former
president of the United States.
Does it change the political
Does it change the political landscape?
Probably not.
You know,
Mike is going to start threading.
The needle is absolutely right.
And he's going to have a difficult time
sort of
trying to appeal
to part of the Trump base
and still separate himself
from Donald Trump.
So I don't think it changes the politics,
but it may change the investigation.
So Democrats in Congress
just sticking with
Trump for a second are going to get hold
of the former president's taxes.
We learned that from the Supreme Court
this week.
I want to show people what you said
while you were acting
chief of staff in the White House,
and I'll ask you about it. Watch
Be clear.
You believe
Democrats will never see
the president's tax returns?
Oh, no, never not.
Nor should they keep in mind
that that's an issue
that was already litigated
during the election.
Voters knew
the president could have given
his tax returns.
They knew that he didn't it
and they elected him anyway.
So what do you say now?
The Supreme Court,
which, of course, includes
several Donald Trump
nominees, unanimously
said Treasury handed over.
Yeah.
And I haven't read the opinion,
so I don't have the insight of what the
two lines long.
You don't need to read really anything.
They basically said, sorry,
you don't have an argument.
Treasury hand him over.
Yeah.
And I'm still think that's
the wrong decision.
Keep in mind,
the only reason that Congress
is entitled to get that kind of thing
is in its lawmaking capacity.
It is not an investigative body
regularly can do oversight,
but the reason it collects information
is for the purposes of making law.
And I guess they convince
the Supreme Court
that that's what this was,
even though
to the casual observer
and even non casual observer
from the outside,
it looks like it's part
of a political investigation,
not a legislative investigation.
But again,
not the first time I've been wrong.
Will it provide
I mean, I have no idea
what's in the tax returns.
Nobody does
other than Trump and his team.
Will it provide
probably a wealth of information
that Democrats can use
against Donald Trump?
Politically?
Absolutely.
My guess is that's
why Trump didn't
want to turn over in the first place.
Yeah.
No, I mean, that that does make sense.
I mean, you have said
that you want someone else
to be the Republican nominee in 20, 24.
But is there realistically right now
anyone out there that you think
is setting the stage to actually be able
to beat him in a nominating contest?
Sure.
I think a bunch
of folks can beat him head to head.
I think Ron
DeSantis could beat him head to head.
I think
Tim Scott could beat him head to head
in a head to head race.
Donald Trump is good.
I mean, if Donald
Trump pulls 35%,
he's he's
going to lose in a head to head race.
If I run against you
and I get 35%, I'm going to lose.
If I run against you
and everybody else in the studio,
I'm going to win with my 35%.
And primaries are basically winner
take all.
So in a head to head competition
I do think he can be beat
but in a five on one
a six on one type of race
which is the way
I think it's shaking out
I think he's the presumptive
Republican nominee
and I think he loses in 20, 24
because he makes it a
referendum on himself.
It's not Donald Trump versus
Joe Biden or whomever.
It's not Republican versus Democrat.
It's Donald Trump. Versus Donald Trump.
And one of the people that can beat
Donald Trump is Donald Trump.
That's exactly what happened in 20, 20.
Right.
So I mean, what's your message
to all these Republicans
who seem so eager to jump into the race
and make this a very large field
that, as you point out,
gives Donald Trump
potentially the strategic advantage
that he needs to become the nominee?
I mean, do
they need to check their egos,
put it aside and get out of the way
to make to to pick somebody else?
Yeah.
I mean, there's no United anti-Trump
front in the in the Republican Party,
nor should that be.
If folks want to run
and think they have a chance to run,
they should win. My advice excuse me.
They should run.
My advice to
them would be define yourself.
Don't go in.
As a pro-Trump candidate
who sort of criticizes
him on January six,
don't go in as an anti-Trump candidate.
Go in as your own man or your own woman.
That's really the only chance you've got.
Take Donald Trump on
head to head as you being you,
not as you trying to define yourself.
In terms of Donald Trump,
I do think that there's
a couple of candidates
who can do that again to
Sanders being one of them.
Are you ready to personally jump on board
with any one of the colleagues,
former colleagues of yours
or people you've been hearing from?
Are you are you ready to say,
I'll support you, Ron
DeSantis in the primary at.
No, I mean, I'm an unusual position.
I'm friends with all these folks.
Mike Pompeo and I served together.
Nikki Haley was my governor
and served in the legislature with me.
Tim Scott was in the legislature with me
as a close friend.
Ron DeSantis was in the house with me.
Mike Pence and I were in,
you know, served together.
So now they're all friends of mine.
I wish them very well
if they decide to run.
My guess is every single
one of those people that I just mentioned
will either give a real serious
look to running or in fact, run.
So it's going to be probably, again,
just like it was in 2006,
a very crowded Republican field.
Yeah.
So before
I let you go,
I got to ask you about
what's up next for Kevin McCarthy,
because you obviously
a founding member of the Freedom Caucus,
you all basically ran John Boehner
out of Washington now
McCarthy is facing a situation where
at least four
or five of his members
have said
they want to vote for him to be speaker.
We are looking potentially
at a very challenging period
for him to even get the gavel,
let alone actually govern the country.
Do you think McCarthy is going to be
speaker of the House
and can he manage
the conference if he does?
Yes and yes,
although the
second yes is a little bit more difficult
because managing that group
is going to be difficult.
But keep in mind
it's a little bit different
than it was in 2000.
I think it was 15 when John Boehner left,
because we knew in the Freedom Caucus
that there were other people
who could effectively be the speaker.
We thought Kevin McCarthy
was one of those people at the time.
It turned out
that wasn't the case, but we knew Paul
Ryan was a candidate.
And believe it or not,
this doesn't get a lot of attention.
Trey Gowdy
actually
probably had the votes to be speaker
as well if he chose to run.
I'm not sure if there's anybody else
in the House who could get the votes.
Keep in mind
right now
with a slim margin, let's say
there's a five vote margin.
Any group of six House
members could prevent Kevin McCarthy
from being speaker.
By the same token,
Kevin McCarthy
and five other of his friends
could prevent anybody else
from being speaker.
And that's the dynamic that I think
I was lost on a lot of people.
Do I think Kevin
is going to be the speaker?
Yes,
because I think he's the only one
who can actually get 218 votes.
Will he have to give up a lot to the
to the MAGA
wing of the party, to the Freedom Caucus?
Yes, he will.
But I do think he'll be speaker
and I think
he'll be as effective
as anybody else
will be in very trying
times in the House.
I guess we're about to find out.
Mick Mulvaney,
thank you very much for your time
tonight, sir. I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Kate.
Casey, happy Thanksgiving. You, too.