>>> IN TAKING A MORE
CONFRONTATIONAL POSTURE TOWARD
RUSSIA AT THE OUTSET OF HIS
TERM, PRESIDENT BIDEN IS BUCKING
THE TREND SET BY HIS
PREDECESSORS.
THATS BECAUSE EVEN BEFORE TRUMP
PAST ADMINISTRATIONS EXTENDED
MORE OF THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT
TO PUTIN THAN HE NECESSARILY
DESERVED.
FOR INSTANCE WHEN ASKED IN A
2001 JOINT PRESS CONFERENCE
WHETHER PUTIN WAS TRUSTWORTHY,
GEORGE W. BUSH TRUSTINGLY GAVE
THIS ENDORSEMENT.
>> I WILL ANSWER THE QUESTION.
I LOOKED THE MAN IN THE EYE.
I FOUND HIM TO BE
STRAIGHTFORWARD AND TRUSTWORTHY.
WE HAD A VERY GOOD DIALOGUE.
I WAS ABLE TO GET A SENSE OF HIS
SOUL.
>> OF COURSE, PUTIN WENT ON TO
CRACKDOWN ON THE MEDIA, CANCEL
ELECTIONS, ARREST HIS POLITICAL
OPPONENT AND INVADE THE
NEIGHBORING COUNTRY OF GEORGIA
DURING BUSHS EIGHT YEARS IN
OFFICE.
THEN CAME THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION WHICH GAVE PUTIN
ANOTHER CHANCE IN WHAT WAS
DUBBED A RESET WITH RUSSIA.
SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY
CLINTON EVEN PRESENTED THE
FOREIGN MINISTER WITH A PROP
RESET BUTTON TO SYMBOLIZE
AMERICAN GOOD WILL.
WHILE THERE WAS SOME PROGRESS ON
IRAN AND DISARMAMENT, PUTIN
BETRAYED THAT TRUST AGAIN WHEN
HE SEIZED CRIMEA FROM UKRAINE IN
2014 AND ATTACKED OUR ELECTION
IN 2016.
BUT ANY MISCALCULATIONS ON THE
PART OF PRESIDENT BUSH OR OBAMA
WERE TRIVIAL COMPARED TO DONALD
TRUMPS TOTAL CAPITULATION TO
RUSSIA, THAT INCLUDES WHAT WAS
PROBABLY THE MOST HUMILIATING
MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF FOREIGN
RELATIONS WHEN TRUMP LET RUSSIA
OFF THE HOOK FOR ATTACKING OUR
DEMOCRACY AND TOOK PUTINS SIDE
OVER HIS OWN INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
IN HELSINKI IN 2018.
IT WAS SO DISASTROUS FORMER
TRUMP ADVISOR FIONA HILL
CONSIDERED PULLING A FIRE ALARM
TO CUT IT OFF.
>> FIRST OF ALL, I LOOKED AROUND
TO SEE IF THERE WAS A FIRE
ALARM, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE WERE IN
A RATHER GRAND BUILDING ATTACHED
TO THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE OF
THE FINISH PRESIDENT WHO LENT IT
TO US FOR THE OCCASION AND I
COULDNT SEE ANYTHING THAT
RESEMBLED A FIRE ALARM.
IT WAS MORTGAGE PHIING, FRANKLY,
AND HUMILIATING FOR THE COUNTRY.
>> AFTER HIS THREE PREDECESSORS,
BIDEN HAS NO ILLUSIONS ABOUT
PUTIN AND IT WAS APPARENT IN HIS
PERFORMANCE TODAY.
BACK WITH ME OUR FORMER
AMBASSADOR MICHAEL McFAUL AND
BEN RHODES.
JOINING US FROM MOSCOW IS SENIOR
CORRESPONDENT KEIR SIMMONS.
KEIR, YOU RECENTLY SAT DOWN WITH
VLADIMIR PUTIN HIMSELF.
I WONDER IF YOU COULD GIVE US AN
ASSESSMENT OF WHAT YOU SAW IN
THAT PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY IN
WHICH IT SEEMED THAT PUTIN WAS
DETERMINED TO ANSWER ANY
QUESTION ABOUT HIS OWN COUNTRY
AND HIS OWN ADMINISTRATION OF
HIS COUNTRY WITH THINGS BLACK
LIVES MATTER AND DEFENDING THE
JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONISTS.
IS THAT SOMETHING YOU EXPECTED
GIVEN YOU RECENTLY HAVING SPOKEN
WITH HIM?
>> Reporter: HEY, JOY.
YEAH, 100%.
LOOK, IM GLAD THAT YOU FRAMED
THIS AS A MORE CONFRONTATIONAL
APPROACH FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN
BECAUSE, LOOK, THIS IS A KIND OF
ROAR.
THERE WAS A GUY IN THE RUSSIA
DELEGATION, A GENERAL WHO
INVENTED SOMETHING CALLED THE
JURASIMOV DOCTRINE.
IT BASICALLY DESCRIBES GOING TO
WAR WITHOUT GOING TO WAR, IF YOU
LIKE.
LET ME READ YOU A LITTLE BIT
FROM WHAT THAT RUSSIAN GENERAL
WROTE SOMETIME AGO ABOUT WHAT IT
IS ABOUT.
HE SAID, THE RULES OF WAR HAVE
CHANGED.
RULES ARE NO LONGER DECLARED AND
HAVING BEGUN PROCEED ACCORDING
TO AN UNFAMILIAR TEMPLATE.
SO WARS ARE NO LONGER DECLARED.
THERE YOU SEE PUTIN IN THAT NEWS
CONFERENCE DENYING, DENY, DENY,
DENY THAT YOURE DOING IT.
AN UNFAMILIAR TEMPLATE.
THATS THE PROPAGANDA.
THATS GETTING INTO THE DIVISIVE
ISSUES IN THE U.S. AND TRYING
TO, YOU KNOW, LEAN INTO THEM.
THIS IS A KIND OF SHADOW WAR BY
RUSSIA.
RUSSIA, WEVE SAID, IS TOO WEAK
VIS-A-VIS AMERICA TO GO TO WAR
WITH AMERICA, YOU KNOW, UP
FRONT, BUT THAT IS WHAT THE
STRATEGY IS.
I THINK THE FIRST STEP IN TAKING
IT ON IS TO REALLY RECOGNIZE IT.
WHAT I THINK YOU HAVE TO HOPE IS
THAT THIS IS PRESIDENT BIDENS
FIRST MOVE ON THE CHESS BOARD,
BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED TODAY IS
NOT EVEN CLOSE TO ENOUGH.
RUSSIA, THE KREMLIN BEHIND ME
HERE, NEEDS TO FEEL LIKE THERE
WILL BE REAL CONSEQUENCES.
PRESIDENT BIDEN DID SAY THAT.
HE ALSO DID SAY THAT WELL SEE
WHAT HAPPENS.
SO WELL SEE.
JOY.
>> YEAH.
AMBASSADOR McFAUL, I FEEL LIKE
EVEN SOME OF THE STAGE CRAFT, IT
ALMOST SORT OF PLAYED OUT WHAT
YOURE HEARING KEIR SIMMONS TALK
ABOUT.
THE FACT THEY DIDNT DO A JOINT
PRESS CONFERENCE, THERE WAS NO
OPPORTUNITY FOR PUTIN TO TRY TO
DO THE SAME ACT WITH BIDEN, YOU
KNOW, IN BIDENS PRESENCE, THE
FACT THEY REMAINED SEPARATE, THE
FACT BIDEN ACTUALLY MADE HIM
WAIT.
WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THIS
STUFF YESTERDAY.
THOSE SUBTLE MESSAGES, WHAT DOES
THAT DO TO PUTIN INSIDE OF HIS
OWN COUNTRY?
BECAUSE IT SEEMED LIKE THEY WERE
TRYING TO PUT OUT IMAGES AND
PICTURES THAT WOULD RAISE HIS
STATURE BECAUSE HE DIDNT GET TO
HAVE TOO MANY SIDE-BY-SIDE
OPPORTUNITIES.
>> WELL, IN TERMS OF THE
PROTOCOL AND THE SCRIPTING OF
THIS SUMMIT, IT IS THE
ANTI-HELSINKI AND VERY
APPROPRIATELY SO.
I THINK THE BIDEN PROTOCOL FOLKS
GET A LOT OF CREDIT.
YOURE RIGHT.
PUTIN HAD TO SHOW UP FIRST.
THEY CHANGED THAT, BY THE WAY,
IN A LAST-MINUTE THING.
THATS GREAT.
NUMBER TWO, THEY HAD NOTE TAKERS
IN THE ROOM.
SECOND BLINKEN WAS THERE.
DONALD TRUMP DIDNT HAVE ANY
NOTES.
WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE TALKED
ABOUT WHEN HE WAS ONE-ON-ONE
WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.
FIONA HILL, WHO YOU SHOWED A
CLIP OF, SHE COULD HAVE BEEN
THERE.
SHE WAS HIS RUSSIA SENIOR
ADVISER AT THE NSC.
SHE WASNT LET IN THE MEETING.
THEN NO JOINT PRESS CON FREBS,
WHICH I THINK WAS A GREAT THING
BECAUSE PRESIDENT BIDEN DIDNT
HAVE TO STAND THERE AND LISTEN
TO THE GREATEST HITS OF WHAT
ABOUT-ISM THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN
DID IN HIS PRESS CONFERENCE.
THATS ALL FOR US.
BUT BACK HOME, LETS BE CLEAR,
MR. PUTIN IS COMING BACK FROM
GENEVA FEELING PRETTY GOOD.
HE DID A WHOLE BUNCH OF BAD
THINGS.
HE ANNEXED CRIMEA, PROPPED UP
ASSAD, VIOLATED OUR SOVEREIGTY
IN 2016, TRIED TO KILL
MR. SKRIPAL IN THE UK IN 2018.
AFTER THAT BAD BEHAVIOR HE GETS
TO HAVE A SUMMIT HERE IN GENEVA
WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT LEADER
IN THE WORLD.
AND THEN, SECONDLY, HE THEN WENT
TO HIS PRESS CONFERENCE AND HE
WAS HAVING A GOOD TIME.
I WATCHED IT.
I SPEAK RUSSIAN, I COULD LISTEN
TO BOTH OF IT, AND FOR HIS FOLKS
THAT ARE NOT -- YOU KNOW, MOST
OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT
INDEPENDENT PRESS JOURNALISTS,
HE GOT TO FRAME THIS AS
EVERYBODY, DESPITE EVERYTHING I
DO ON THE STAGE, THEY NEED TO
TALK TO ME.
>> YEAH.
HARD TO AVOID THAT POINT.
LET ME PLAY A LITTLE BIT FOR
YOU, BEN.
THIS WAS FORMER SECRETARY OF
STATE HILLARY CLINTON AND SHE
WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT
IT IS TO DEAL WITH THIS COUNTRY.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> I THINK YOU CANT BE EITHER,
YOU KNOW, STARRY EYED OR TOTALLY
TURNING YOUR BACK.
YOUVE GOT TO WALK WHAT IS AN
UNCOMFORTABLE BUT NECESSARY
PATH.
HOW DO WE CALIBRATE?
HOW DO WE GET THEM TO DO
SOMETHING?
HOW DO WE STOP THEM FROM DOING
SOMETHING?
HOW DO WE IMPOSE COSTS IF THEY
DO GO FORWARD?
AND I THINK JOE BIDEN HAS
LEARNED A LOT, AS WE ALL HAVE.
I DO THINK YOU NEED BOTH AN
INSIDE AND AN OUTSIDE GAME.
YOU NEED A PUBLIC AND A PRIVATE
APPROACH TO PUTIN, AND, YOU
KNOW, THATS WHAT JOE BIDEN
GETS.
>> BEN RHODES, YOU LIVED THAT
THROUGH THE ADMINISTRATION, AND
I WONDER IF YOU THINK THAT, YOU
KNOW, GETTING THE START TO
TREATY WAS A BIG DEAL.
SOME OF THE YOU KNOW,
ADVANCEMENTS MADE DURING THE
OBAMA YEARS WERE A BIG DEAL.
DO YOU THINK THAT ESSENTIALLY
PUTIN HAS EMERGED REALLY
EMBOLDENED BECAUSE AS YOU JUST
HEARD AMBASSADOR McFAUL SAY, HE
KNOWS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH HIM
NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES.
>> LOOK, JOY.
I MEAN WE HAVE A 20-YEAR HISTORY
NOW WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN SHALL
AND WE CAN SEE WHO HE IS AND
HES NOT GOING TO CHANGE.
SO THERES REALLY TWO TASKS IN
FRONT OF US.
ONE IS WHAT CAN YOU DO THROUGH
YOUR FOREIGN POLICY TO TRY TO
CONTAIN WHAT HES DOING.
YOURE NOT GOING TO REVERSE WHAT
HE IS DOING.
YOURE NOT GOING TO MAKE HIM
STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVENTS
INSIDE PLACES LIKE UKRAINE AND
GEORGIA.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE HIM
SUDDENLY OPEN UP RUSSIA TO A
MULTI-PARTY DEMOCRACY, BUT YOU
NEED TO TRY TO CONTAIN HIS
EXCESSES BECAUSE HE IS AWARE
THERES A COST, YOU HAVE A
DETERRENT, AND BECAUSE YOU HAVE
OTHER COUNTRIES WITH YOU
IMPOSING THE COSTS AND
CONSEQUENCES.
I THINK MORE FUNDAMENTALLY THE
ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM IS THAT
VLADIMIR PUTIN IS PART OF A
STRING OF NATIONAL
AUTHORITARIANISM, KIND OF THE
VANGUARD OF IT, THAT IS IN THIS
COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.
THERES A SIMYMBIOSIS, THE REASO
VLADIMIR PUTIN COULD INTERFERE
IN THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT ONLY WAS
THE DOOR HELD OPEN BY DONALD
TRUMP, BUT BECAUSE THE
DISINFORMATION KIND OF THING WAS
ON FOX NEWS.
YOU TALK ABOUT JANUARY 6th, I
DONT DOUBT FOR A SECOND THAT
THERE WERENT RUSSIAN TROLLS
AMPLIFYING THE BIG LIE ENDING IN
JANUARY 6th.
IT WASNT SOMETHING HE DECIDED
TO DO TODAY.
IT IS SOMETHING THAT HE IS
OVERLAPPING, HE IS SYMBIOTIC
WITH THE NATIONALIST TREND IN
THIS COUNTRY.
THE OTHER THING WE HAVE TO DO IS
FORTIFY OUR DEMOCRACY AT HOME.
THERES TWO SIDES OF THIS COIN,
AND WE SAW ONE SIDE OF IT WHICH
IS AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT MAKING
US PROUD BY STANDING UP FOR
DEMOCRATIC VALUES AND HUMAN
RIGHTS ON THE WORLD STAGE.
BUT THEN WE ALSO NEED TO COME