Hello.
This is the Lid is On.
The UN's flagship news show, which is coming to you from The Gambia.
This episode and several more episodes to come.
We are talking about
many aspects of the country, the smallest on the African mainland
and one that's made huge strides over the last few years.
And who better to start off this series than Niania Dabo-Tourey,
the head of the UN Capital Development Fund in The Gambia.
Thank you for being with us today.
Thank you, Conor, for having me today.
And thank you for introduce me to baobab juice and many other Gambian delights.
Very delicious food here.
Returning migrants in particular.
This is something that is, I wouldn't say an issue, but it's a new phenomenon,
the idea that there's more inward migration than external migration.
Why do you think that is?
I think it is lack of opportunities.
People want to move out of their homes,
which is their comfort zones, to look for better opportunities
and to
take care of themselves and their families.
And that's that's the root cause
of whether it is rule or urban
or whether it's out of the country elsewhere.
But in recent years, people have been coming back. Yes.
People have been coming back because they're not welcomed to where they are.
They are not welcome in the sense they don't feel at home
their opportunities that they've gone to search are not there.
They're not allowed to work.
They're living in worse situations than they were.
So they have that sense, strong sense of feeling that we might as well go
back to where we are from and see what we can do for ourselves at home.
For many people
already in the country, there are limited opportunities.
Is there anything that the UN and other organizations can do to actually
improve the possibilities for people economically?
Yes, and we are doing that.
I remember when
when I was a consultant for United Nations Capital Development Fund and I was part
of the team that came to do the scoping mission to design the program.
And we had met the then ambassador of the European Union.
And when we ask what kind of program did
the EU want, and I remember him saying he wants
the people that brought about the change, the democratic change, to feel the change
and that was integral as part of our programing.
We went to rural,
we focused on youth, we focused on women.
The majority of that brought people that brought the change. And
we've seen the impact.
We've seen the results, obviously.
Governance has improved
within the government, but also impact within the communities.
And you're just coming from the fields.
And we were chatting earlier about Guidom when I met Guidom two years ago,
and he said to me, I never thought I could make it from my own village.
Now I don't even think about going to Banjul, let alone going to Europe.
And this is happening.
And it's not only the United Nations Capital Development Fund.
You have the international Trade Center, ITC,
who we've partnered in our program to support the skills aspect.
They're doing a lot as well.
They have a programme with Enabel and GIZ called Tekki Fii.
You can make it in your own country.
There's IOM with the migration programme.
You know, you have FAO, WFP, there’re a number of agencies.
Before 2016, there were seven U.N.
agencies and after 2016 we have 14 U.N.
agencies, all of us doing our different work
within our mandate, but supporting youth, women and vulnerable communities.
Entrepreneurship was one thing that struck me since being here,
the sense that people want to start their own businesses,
that they feel that there are more opportunities
for now that weren't there under the under the dictatorship.
And this is something that you're trying to support and promote as well.
Yes. When we came to The Gambia, United Nation Capital Development Fund
because my background is economics and finance.
So I work a lot on data
and when we
did the analysis of the entrepreneurial sector,
90% of the MSMEs,
that's the micro, small and medium enterprises
were either start-ups or at the survival stage
and you have the 10% that are at the growth stage, at the international stage.
So we knew there was work needed there, there was support
needed there to help uplift some of those businesses
that have been there that have, you know, been established.
How can we help them get more structured to elevate them to the growth stage.
And we've done very good work with some enterpreneurs.
You've met Maruo Farm in the field and he's a Gambian that used to live in
the US, came back and with his own capital and was finding it difficult.
And through the Job Skills and Finance programme,
we were able to support him
move from that survival stage to the growth stage.
And now he's looking at
international stage where he will be able to export his rice.
Well, let's talk a bit more about
what the Capital Development Fund, the UN Capital Development Fund does.
Some people might not know that you've been around for several decades,
but I think to some people who I speak to, this idea of the UN being involved
in economic development is still controversial.
Even Cash for Work, which you're involved in, some people
find it hard to wrap their heads around that, but these are ideas
that are growing, becoming more and more mainstream.
What would you say to people who might find it odd that the UN is
giving low interest loans or even grants
to businesses?
I mean, it's how we look at development. Development has evolved.
I think in the early days of the UN development
was focused mainly on humanitarian
sort of development.
So obviously a big part of what the UN does.
Yes, but development has evolved now
to supporting economies
like the challenges that Member States are facing.
So the United Nations Capital Development Fund, for example,
our mandate is to provide to support subnational,
you know, so we have the mandate to provide grants to local government,
not only central but local government and the private sector.
And what is the advantage of getting involved with that?
Again, some people might say this is what the local government should be doing.
They should be helping the people.
Why is the UN getting involved at this level?
We are working with them. We are not doing their work.
We are working with the local government.
We are working with the private sector where we would provide these grants
that are being made available to them by the donor countries
and we provide the technical assistance to help them in the process.
And that's all part of development
We are dealing with people that are not used to handling
their own
cash or knowing how to handle their own businesses.
So we're trying to address the fundamental challenges
that are being an obstacle in development.
And our focus for the United Nations Capital Development Fund
is the Least Developed Countries.
Let's turn to climate change
or the climate crisis, rather. Now,
The Gambia is not really responsible for any of the climate emission,
the carbon emissions that are having such a devastating effect around the world.
But the countries being affected by this.
Your projects are closely linked to sustainability,
to a low carbon footprint.
When The Gambia is, as I said, a country which
really isn't producing many emissions.
Why is it important that there's this climate aspect
attached to the development programmes in the country?
I mean, climate is a global concern,
It's a global challenge and it's affecting everyone.
And I must say, The Gambia is one of the
if not the only country that has met its nationally determined contribution so far.
We are leading the way.
And the challenge right now that's being faced with
is the communities that face these disasters, this natural disaster.
How do we support them
so that they can build resilience
to be able to support themselves in the case of natural disaster?
And that's the focus of our work
with the United Nations Capital Development Fund.
We have a facility called the Local Climate Adaptive Living Facility.
We call it LoCal that supports
channel of climate finance to the local level.
And it's done in such a way that
we have a menu of investment that addresses different
climate areas and gives the communities the freedom to choose
projects that would address their urgent needs.
And we met briefly in Egypt
at the UN Climate Change Conference. Yes.
And you were talking about LoCal.
Yes. The project you just mentioned.
One thing I noticed at the UN Climate Change conference was that
there were many African representatives
who were arguing that they should be allowed to use their natural resources
to develop their country, to help citizens, to have access to electricity
and to sell their coal, their gas,
their point
being that it is developed countries who were allowed to use their resources
and now these countries, the ones telling developing countries
that they can't and that they should be compensated in some way.
Is this an argument that you heard in Egypt as well?
Yes, Conor.
I've heard that I work closely with the Least Developed Countries group.
One of those countries is The Gambia.
Is The Gambia on the COP,
UNFCCC.
The sentiment is is the same across, it's a feeling
that why do we have to suffer for what we have not created.
And I think credit has to go to Egypt.
That was the host of COP 27 to be able to get that Loss and Damage Fund.
Which was a big breakthrough.
This idea to have a fund to compensate African countries
that are at a lower stage of development for these problems because they are
the ones that are suffering, even though they didn't cause the problem.
Yes, And it's changed the conversation and it's part of that
has made 2023 feel different.
I think when people have been raising their voices
and their concerns on an unsettled matter over a long time
and see it actually happen, it makes a big difference.
And I think now the goal is how do we get it going.
And this is the first step.
And in this country, many citizens still don't have access to electricity.
And we all know that electricity is really the basis for development.
How is the government going to improve access, do you think, and will
they be able to do it sustainably and without raising the carbon emissions?
I think a lot of work has started with the government at the regional level.
You have the OMVG that's trying to support.
What's the OMVG?
It's a regional electricity and water programme
that involves The Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, Senegal and Guinea-Conakry
to help sort out the electricity problems in these four countries.
At the national level, you have the World Bank
supporting a lot
with energy programme.
So I think also the United Nations Capital Development Fund
and the UNDP have the NAMA
project, which is on energy
hydrate, solar and regular energy.
So there's a lot of work being done.
I think what's important for the country is to consolidate
because if you get different help, help coming from different way
and you're not focusing on consolidating, you might not realize
your gains too quickly, but there's a lot of work being done.
And I want to believe and I'm confident that in the next ten, 15 years,
the electricity problem would be solved for the country.
We're such a small country with 22 million population.
It's not as big as compared to Senegal or our neighboring countries.
But there is work being done in that area.
Well, the next few weeks we'll be learning more about how initiatives
you've been involved in
have been having an effect when it comes to jobs, skills, training.
But the projects are coming to an end as we speak in the next few months.
What is next for the UN Capital Development Fund?
What is next for you?
Well, what's next for us?
We're still here.
I think what the Job, Skills and Finance programme
has done is to enable us to come back to the country,
because UNCDF was once here in the country
between, if I get it right, 1996 to 2002.
And this time round, because of the way we've worked with the government,
the way we've designed our programs, for example, the LoCal which is embedded
within the country's system, you have that country ownership
and we are going to continue being here.
The LoCal is going to be scaled up nationally.
The JSF has covered four regions
and will be covering the remaining four regions and 122 districts.
So we're here to stay.
We work closely with the Government of The Gambia
as the right partner for development and supporting them.
Close the gaps in a different way
from the standard way of the UN
way of working.
We are more outcome
focused, which is for the Government of The Gambia.
LDC graduation by 2063 and content driven.
How do you get to graduation?
Through the National Development Plans and country led in resource mobilization?
I think the main challenge that many UN agencies face right now is core funding.
I think donors are no longer interested in funding the operation
of running of the UN.
So that gives us an opportunity, especially with UNCDF
that works with the Least Developed Countries.
They're the only Member States that are eligible now for voluntary
funding and we've positioned ourselves very well
with the Government of The Gambia as a development partner
in the coming
Doha Program of Action at LDC five conference.
We're supporting working closely with the Government of The Gambia
through the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Finance
to tap into nontraditional donors that would support climate financing,
support private sector development that are integral
part of the Doha Programme of Action.
So we're here to stay for as long as we are
being seen as the right partner and a useful partner to the country.
Well, 2063, hopefully we'll still be around to.
Hopefully as 40 years.
40 years.
Let's make a date to to meet up by then.
But if nothing else, we will be part of the legacy that have initiated this.
And I think this is what Least Developed Countries need. Any strategic
guidance and direction to help them achieve their purpose.
But before 2063, as you say, 40 years off
in the next ten, 20 years,
do you think that if I were to come back,
I'd be seeing a very different Gambia from what I'm seeing now? Yes.
In what way? In many ways.
I mean, you look at the National Development Plan 2017 to 2022,
there has been a lot of
work being done in terms of reforms, in terms of putting policies
at the macro level to make the country conducive, infrastructure going on.
And this
National Development Plan will be looking at implementation,
implementing those plans from the macro level down to the micro.
So definitely I would even say ten years.
But if you come here in the next three five years, there would be changes.
Oh, I'll take that as an invitation. Yes.
Niania, I didn't think I'd meet another West Londoner, in The Gambia,
but just because anything can happen.
Thanks very much for giving us an overview,
telling us more about yourself as well.
Thank you, Conor. Thank you. It's been nice having you.