JUDY WOODRUFF: The death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg comes at a critical moment. In her
life, she often found herself in them. In some cases, she created them.
Justice Ginsburg leaves a lasting impact on the law, the nation and how we as Americans
conceive of equality.
She has been lying in repose at the Supreme Court, before becoming the first woman in
history to lie in state at the U.S. Capitol.
We know there are other critical issues today: a pandemic that has left more than 200,000
Americans dead; an economic crisis that has left millions more out of work; a reckoning
over racial injustice in cities across the country and an election that will shape our
future.
But now we focus on Justice Ginsburg and what her absence means for the court.
We begin with a rare and special reflection on the life and legacy of Justice Ginsburg
from inside the Supreme Court.
Justice Stephen Breyer joined the court a year after Ginsburg. They were friends and
longtime allies in their approach to the law.
Justice Breyer, thank you so much for joining us.
How has this affected you?
STEPHEN BREYER, U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice: Thank you for having me.
I mean, it's affected me. It makes me pretty sad. We were friends for a long time, not
just on the court. I knew Ruth before she was a judge. I always thought she was a good
judge.
And she -- for me, I mean, she was a rock. And she was fun, actually. And we thought
a lot alike. And it was nice. It was just nice for me having her right here on the court
with me.
JUDY WOODRUFF: What was it like being with her on the court? You knew each other, as
you said, a little beforehand. What was that friendship like?
STEPHEN BREYER: On the court?
Well, you have to understand Ruth. Ruth had a brilliant mind, and she's logical and hardworking,
very principled and very detailed. And she has a sense of humor.
But that isn't obvious at first meeting. I think sometimes when I talk. And she thinks
when she thinks. So, if she has nothing to say, she says nothing. And that can be a little
putting off.
But over time, she is the kind of person that, the more that you know her, the better you
like her, not just respect. It's respect, but I mean genuine liking.
In more recent years, I might find something very funny. And I would go in her office.
And I'd say: "Ruth, did you -- what do you think of this?"
And I would think it was a riot, of course. And she thought it was sort of funny, too.
And I could stay or we could talk about it, as long as I didn't stay too long...
(LAUGHTER)
STEPHEN BREYER: ... because if I started to stay too long, that would keep her away from
her work.
And she'd stand up behind her desk. And I knew exactly when she wanted to get back to
work. And she did.
Well, I miss her. I miss her. I will miss her a lot.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Justice Breyer, it's clear that the two of you got along very well.
Did she get along well with everybody at -- on the court?
STEPHEN BREYER: She did get along well.
I mean, she paid attention to detail. And that detail involved human relations. It involved
her clothes. She dressed very nicely. It involved those ruffs she used to wear.
Just a few weeks ago, I had my sixth grandchild. And unbeknownst to me, she sent a little present
to this little infant, a T-shirt which said "RBG Future Clerk."
And then she figured out -- I don't know how -- that he had a brother or a half-brother.
And she put in there: "This is too small for you, Stevie (ph). It's going to have to be
for Ryan (ph), until you get big enough to fill it."
Good. And she did things like that for a lot of people and -- on this court.
Elena was telling me that -- how she did something like that for her. And she's thoughtful.
Here -- look, I came in my office this afternoon -- or a few minutes ago. And on my desk, because
I had a birthday two weeks ago, here is a card she sent. And it says, "I order you"
-- with a picture of her -- "to have a happy birthday."
(LAUGHTER)
STEPHEN BREYER: Then it says: "To my younger colleague, stay cool and well. And we have
to face-to-face enjoy theater and other musical productions and other post-pandemic delights."
I really -- that put me in a lot better mood this morning, I'll tell you, seeing that.
JUDY WOODRUFF: What about on the work side, Justice Breyer.
I'm curious about the internal dynamics of you frequently outnumbered four progressives
on the court. What was her role in that?
STEPHEN BREYER: I think her role was primarily we knew that she would think things through.
I certainly knew and the others knew that she would have gone into the detail of the
case. She would understand the record, would understand the details. And if she was going
to write something, she would write it clearly, right to the point. And that was just going
to be it.
For me, that was good. It was helpful. And when she was dealing with something, I knew
it would be thorough, and I knew she'd persevere, and I knew it would be principled.
JUDY WOODRUFF: We don't know who her replacement will be, of course, but how will the court
be different without her?
STEPHEN BREYER: I don't know. I know that that will be a loss.
When -- and Judge Byron White said, with every new judge, it's a new court, no matter what,
different human relationships, different reactions.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You are known, Justice Breyer, as a consensus-seeker on the court. Will that
be more difficult with a sixth conservative justice?
STEPHEN BREYER: Yogi Berra: I never make predictions, particularly not about the future.
JUDY WOODRUFF: I know you don't want to comment on the political partisan atmosphere out there
right now, but do you have a worry, Justice Breyer, that these bitter battles are going
to affect the institution, are going to affect the credibility of the Supreme Court?
STEPHEN BREYER: So, you're asking me really what I think about the future.
So, I don't really, or I don't know publicly anyway. At least, at the moment, I'm -- whatever
-- the future will bring what it brings. And we will all do our best on this court, whatever
that is.
JUDY WOODRUFF: One other thing, Justice Breyer.
You said in April of last year that you wouldn't mind seeing term limits imposed on Supreme
Court justices, as long as they were long. And you mentioned 18 years. Do you still hold
that view?
STEPHEN BREYER: That was a number pulled out of a hat.
I have been asked that many times. Would it be just as good to have very long terms? And,
personally, I think, yes, that's fine, as long as the term is long.
What I was thinking of when I'm asked the question is, is, you don't want a person in
this job that I have now thinking about what his or her next job will be. And that's why
it has to be a long term.
But, as a practical matter, though, the Constitution has been interpreted as a life term.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You were also asked about the size of the court. And at that time last year,
you said you thought nine was about the right number.
You still feel that way?
STEPHEN BREYER: I would like to make no comment whatsoever about anything that's happening
outside this court at the moment.
Joanna one time said: "You know, Stephen, not every silence has to be filled."
(LAUGHTER)
STEPHEN BREYER: And I think Ruth felt about the same way.
She was a thinking person with a very good mind and a very, very great justice. I was
lucky that she was my colleague for 26 years, 25 years.
JUDY WOODRUFF: It sounds like you will miss her.
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHEN BREYER: I will. I do.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Justice Stephen Breyer, thank you so much for talking with us. We appreciate
it.