SNUGSZS MIGHT NOT SURVIVE. TODAY THE PERIL IS WORSE THAN IN
THE 1970s BECAUSE TRUMP IS MORE
DANGEROUS THAN NIXON.
JOINING OUR DISCUSSION NOW, JILL
WINE-BANKS, FORMER ASSISTANT
WATERGATE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR AND
NBC LEGAL ANALYST.
SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF THE NEW
BOOK "THE WATERGATE GIRL."
PRETTY EXCITING, JILL.
ON SALE TOMORROW.
SO THAT LAST LINE THAT I READ,
AND THIS IS A QUESTION THAT I’VE
BEEN GOING -- TOSSING AROUND IN
MY HEAD THROUGHOUT THE TRUMP
PRESIDENCY.
PRESIDENCY. WHO’S WORSE?
WHO’S WORSE? RICHARD NIXON OR DONALD TRUMP?
>> THEY’RE BOTH BAD, BUT THERE
IS NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT
DONALD TRUMP IS A MUCH MORE
EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
THAN RICHARD NIXON WAS.
AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT
VINDICTIVE AND THE PURGES, I
WOULD SAY THAT NIXON WAS
VINDICTIVE, AND HE RETALIATED
AGAINST ANYONE HE SAW AS NOT
BEING LOYAL TO HIM, BUT HE
DIDN’T PULL OUT PEOPLE FROM THE
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. HE DIDN’T REPLACE THEM WITH
PEOPLE WHO WOULD DO HIS BIDDING
LIKE ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR AND
SO MANY OTHERS.
AND THAT’S WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS
DOING, WHICH HURTS THE
INSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT AND
REALLY THREATENS DEMOCRACY IN A
WAY THAT NIXON DIDN’T.
AND ALSO DURING WATERGATE, THE
SYSTEM WORKED.
SYSTEM WORKED. HE ENDED UP RESIGNING.
HE WAS FORCED OUT OF OFFICE.
AND NOW WE HAVE THE REPUBLICANS
IN THE SENATE SAYING NOT GUILTY.
OH, YES, THERE’S ENOUGH EVIDENCE
TO SHOW THAT HE COMMITTED ALL
THE ACTS THAT ARE CHARGED.
BUT THEN THEY SAID THE WORDS
"NOT GUILTY," AND THAT’S
TERRIBLE.
TERRIBLE. >> WELL, NOW, WAS IT THE SYSTEM
THAT WORKED IN WATERGATE, OR WAS
IT THE PEOPLE?
WAS IT THE INDIVIDUALS?
WAS IT BARRY GOLDWATER’S SENSE
OF DECENCY THAT MADE BARRY
GOLDWATER, ARCH CONSERVATIVE
REPUBLICAN, GO UP TO THAT WHITE
HOUSE AND SAY, PRESIDENT NIXON,
YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO RESIGN?
NOW, PRESIDENT NIXON HAD BEEN
VERY HELPFUL TO HIM IN HIS 1964
CAMPAIGN.
CAMPAIGN. THIS WASN’T EASY ON A PERSONAL
LEVEL.
LEVEL. BUT THERE WAS NOTHING
INSTITUTIONALLY THAT FORCED THEM
TO DO THAT.
THEY TOOK THAT ON AS HUMAN
BEINGS AND DID THAT.
>> I THINK IT WAS A QUESTION OF
TWO THINGS.
TWO THINGS. ONE WAS MORALITY.
AND WE’D HAVE TO LOOK AT ELLIOTT
RICHARDSON, WHO WAS THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL, WHO REFUSED TO FIRE THE
SPECIAL PROSECUTOR BECAUSE HE
HAD PROMISED CONGRESS --
>> REPUBLICAN ELLIOTT
RICHARDSON.
RICHARDSON. >> REPUBLICAN APPOINTED BY THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. BUT HE SAID, I TOLD CONGRESS I
WOULDN’T FIRE HIM EXCEPT FOR
CAUSE.
CAUSE. THERE IS NO CAUSE.
SO NIXON FIRED HIM.
AND THEN THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY
GENERAL RUCKELSHAUS, REFUSED TO
DO THE SAME TASK ASSIGNED TO
HIM, AND HE WAS FIRED.
AND IT WAS BORK, WHO WAS THE
THIRD PERSON, THE SOLICITOR
GENERAL, WHO DID THE FIRING AND
WHO NEVER BECAME A SUPREME COURT
JUSTICE IN LARGE PART BECAUSE HE
DID THE DIRTY DEED.
BUT IT’S ALSO BECAUSE OF THE
MEDIA.
MEDIA. BACK THEN WE HAD THREE NETWORKS,
AND THEY ALL HAD THE SAME FACTS.
NOW YOU HAVE WHAT ARE CALLED
ALTERNATIVE FACTS, WHICH ARE
LIES BASICALLY.
LIES BASICALLY. THEY CAN’T BE ALTERNATIVE FACTS.
THERE ARE FACTS AND THERE ARE
NON-FACTS.
NON-FACTS. AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT
DONALD TRUMP SAYS EVEN THOUGH
IT’S CONTRADICTED BY EVIDENCE IN
PLAIN SIGHT.
PLAIN SIGHT. >> I REALLY WANT TO GET YOUR
REACTION TO THE WEINSTEIN
VERDICT TONIGHT BECAUSE YOU’VE
BEEN PRACTICING LAW SINCE THE
1970s.
1970s. A CASE -- A PROSECUTION LIKE
THIS WAS INCONCEIVABLE IN THE
1970s, INCONCEIVABLE UNTIL VERY
RECENTLY WHEN PROSECUTORS ALWAYS
WANTED THE PERFECT --
>> YES.
>> YES. >> THEY WANTED WHAT THEY WOULD
CALL THE PERFECT VICTIM.
>> THEY WANTED THE PERFECT
VICTIM.
VICTIM. THEY BLAMED THE VICTIM.
THIS IS IN THE DAYS WHEN WHAT
THE VICTIM WORE WAS PART OF THE
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. AND IF YOU WERE DRESSED
PROVOCATIVELY, IT WAS YOUR FAULT
THAT YOU GOT RAPED.
AND SO PEOPLE WOULDN’T --
PROSECUTORS DIDN’T BRING CASES
AS A RESULT OF THAT.
AND THE LAWS HAD TO BE CHANGED.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAD A PRIOR
SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH ANY
PERSON, EVEN IN A LOVING,
COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP, THAT WAS
USED AS EVIDENCE AGAINST YOU.
AND THOSE ARE THINGS THAT THE
LAW HAS CHANGED, BUT I THINK
ATTITUDES HAVE FINALLY CAUGHT UP
AND THAT THE "ME TOO" MOVEMENT,
WHICH I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
STARTED WITH, FOR EXAMPLE,
DONALD TRUMP AND HIS --
>> SHOULD HAVE.
>> IT SHOULD HAVE.
I WOULDN’T HAVE PREDICTED THAT
HARVEY WEINSTEIN WAS THE CAUSE
OF THE WHOLE MOVEMENT, BUT IT IS
HIM WHO STARTED IT.
AND HE’S GOT HIS JUST REWARDS
NOW BY HAVING BEEN CONVICTED.
AND THE JURY OBVIOUSLY TOOK IT
VERY SERIOUSLY AND DID SOME JURY
NULLIFICATION BUT REACHED A FAIR