>> JOINING ME NOW IS RACHEL MADDOW FROM THE RACHEL MADDOW
SHOW. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WE'RE LEARNING FROM KHODORKOVSKY?
>> FIRST OF ALL, CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING THIS INTERVIEW.
OBVIOUSLY THE KHODORKOVSKY STORY -- YOU CAN PRONOUNCE HIS
NAME BETTER THAN I CAN BUT I FOLLOWED THIS STORY FOR A LONG
TIME BECAUSE THE IDEA OF PUTIN'S GRIP ON RUSSIA IS AT ITS HEART
NOT JUST A SORT OF INTRIGUE AND DRAMA STORY IN TERMS OF PUTIN'S
INFLUENCE IN OUR OWN ELECTION, IT'S ALSO A TRAGEDY IN TERMS OF
THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE. RUSSIA IS A GIGANTIC COUNTRY.
IT HAS IMMENSE NATURAL RESOURCES.
IT HAS A BEAUTIFUL CULTURE THAT HAS CONTRIBUTED SO MUCH TO THE
WORLD DESPITE ALL OF THE POLITICAL DIFFICULTIES AND THE
MASS SCALE POLITICALLY DESIGNED DISASTERS OF THE MODERN HISTORY
OF RUSSIA. FROM THE CZARS ON DOWN, RIGHT?
THEN YOU GET SOMEBODY LIKE KHODORKOVSKY WHO DOESN'T GET
AHEAD BECAUSE HE KILLED AND STOLE AND CON FIVED HIS WAY
THERE. YEAH, RUSSIAN BUSINESS AFTER THE
FALL OF THE SOVIET UNION IS DEFINITELY A DARK, DIRTY AND
POLITICIZED THING, BUT KHODORKOVSKY IS SORT OF A
SUCCESS STORY. HE BUILDS AN OIL COMPANY.
HE OUGHT TO BE SUCCEEDING. HE OUGHT TO BE A TITAN IN HIS
COUNTRY. HE'S THE RICHEST MAN IN THAT
COUNTRY, AND PUTIN JUST SNIPS HIM, JUST CUTS HIM OFF.
I'M GLAD YOU PLAYED THAT HISTORICAL FOOTAGE IN TERMS OF
HIM BEING IN THE CAGE IN THE COURTROOM AND IN THE PLEXIGLASS
CUBE. IT'S A TRAGEDY AND I HAVE BEEN
VERY CURIOUS AS TO WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT THIS NEW
ADVENTURISM OF PUTIN IN TERMS OF THIS INFLUENCE THAT HE'S
EXERTING IN OUR OWN ELECTION. SO FIRST OF ALL, I JUST THINK
IT'S IMPORTANT. SECOND OF ALL, I DO THINK HE
MADE SOME NEWS IN WHAT HE TOLD YOU ABOUT SERGEI GORKOV.
SO ONE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, TRUMP
TRANSITION, TRUMP CAMPAIGN RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT CONTACTS THAT
WAS NOT DISCLOSED UNTIL INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATORS FOUND
OUT ABOUT IT WAS THIS MEETING WITH GORKOV.
FOR KHODORKOVSKY, WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
HE SAID I HAVE NO DOUBT HE WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING ON HIS OWN
BEHALF, HE IS A MAN WHO CARRIES OUT ORDERS.
THAT'S IMPORTANT NEWS ABOUT THAT MEETING, AND THERE'S STILL BEEN
NO EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT HAPPENED THERE AND WHY JARED
KUSHNER WAS MEETING WITH HIM DURING THE TRANSITION.
>> THERE'S A TOTAL CONTRADICTION BETWEEN THEM SO EITHER THE
RUSSIAN BANK IS TELLING THE TRUTH OR THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION IS TELLING THE TRUTH.
IT WAS EITHER A DIPLOMATIC MEETING OR A BUSINESS MEETING.
MORE NEWS WE HAVE ON THIS FROM VPT BANK.
THEY SAY THESE ALLEGATIONS FROM KHODORKOVSKY IN THIS NEW
INTERVIEW ARE, QUOTE, COMPLETELY FALSE, UNFOUNDED AND WITH NO
SUBSTANCE. MR. KOSTON IS NOT PERSONALLY
ACQUAINTED WITH MR. PUTIN REGARDING A POSSIBLE MEETING
WITH MR. KUSHNER AND DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE POINT SUCH A
MEETING COULD HAVE HAD. OF COURSE, MANY OF THESE BANKS
HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR YEARS. THE POINT OF THESE MEETINGS IS
TO AT LEAST LIFT SANCTIONS. THEY'RE PUBLICLY LOOKING FOR
THAT. >> VLADIMIR PUTIN PERSONALLY
APPOINTED SERGEI GORKOV TO THE JOB HE WAS IN WHEN HE MET WITH
JARED KUSHNER. HE WENT TO THE KGB SCHOOL.
AND THIS POWERFUL TESTIMONY THAT YOU JUST GOT FROM THE GUY WHO
PREVIOUSLY EMPLOYED HIM WHEN RUSSIA USED TO BE ALLOWED TO
HAVE PRIVATE OIL COMPANIES BEFORE PUTIN TOOK THAT FOR
HIMSELF AND HIS CRONIES TOO. GORKOV MEETING WITH KUSHNER IS
NOT JUST A RED FLAG, IT IS A BLARING RED SIREN.
AND THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT JUST CONTRADICTORY EXPLANATIONS FROM
THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE RUSSIAN SIDE OF THIS, THERE HAS BEEN NO
PLAUSIBLE WHITE HOUSE EXPLANATION FOR WHAT JARED
KUSHNER WAS DOING IN THAT MEETING.
WAS IT RELATED TO KUSHNER FAMILY BUSINESS PROPERTIES, RELATED TO
THE TRUMP TRAG TRANSITION, TO SANCTIONS, WE'VE HAD NO
EXPLANATION OF WHAT WHATSOEVER. HIS M.O. IS TO APPEAR TO BE
COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT AND COOPERATIVE.
HIS SECURITY CLEARANCE APPLICATION WAS A COMPLETE
DISASTER IN TERMS OF DISCLOSING HIS FOREIGN CONTACTS.
HIS ANSWERS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT ANYBODY FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN
OR THE TRANSITION HAD BEEN IN CONTACT WITH RUSSIAN OFFICIALS
IS A COMPLETE DISASTER IN TERMS OF WHAT WE LATER LEARNED ABOUT
THOSE CONTACTS THAT HE DIDN'T
DISCLOSE. THIS GORKOV MEETING IN
PARTICULAR,ULAR, WHAT WAS IT AB? THE WHITE HOUSE SHOULD HAVE TO
SAY WHAT IT'S ABOUT. >> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT
KHODORKOVSKY TALKED TO ME ABOUT WAS HOW VLADIMIR PUTIN CONTROLS
AND STAGE MANAGES SO MUCH IN RUSSIA AND THESE BANKS AS WE'VE
COVERED ARE AN ARM OF THE STATE IN A SENSE.
HERE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT PUTIN IN THE 2018 FORTHCOMING ELECTION
WHICH AS YOU COVERED ON YOUR SHOW HAS BEEN RIFE WITH ATTACKS
ON OPPONENTS JUST LIKE KHODORKOVSKY.
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS. >> CAN PUTIN LOSE THE NEXT
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION NEXT YEAR? >> Translator: IF THERE WAS TO
BE AN ELECTION IN 2018 BY SOME MIRACLE, IT IS HIGHLY LIKELY
THAT PUTIN WOULD LOSE. INSTEAD, IN 2018 WE'RE GOING TO
SEE A SHOW CALLED PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
IT CANNOT BE WON BECAUSE IT IS A SHOW.
THE SHOW WILL GO EXACTLY AS THE PRODUCER HAS PLANNED.
>> WE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THAT. SCRIPTED TELEVISION IS WHAT THEY
CALL IT HERE, REALITY SHOWS. >> Translator: IF SOMETHING
UNEXPECTED HAPPENS, YOU CAN ALWAYS RERECORD.
>> AND THAT'S THE STORY HE LIVED.
>> YEAH. AND, YOU KNOW, KHODORKOVSKY, TO
HIS CREDIT, AFTER GOING THROUGH THIS ORDEAL, AFTER HAVING --
BEING BROUGHT LOW FROM BEING THE RICHEST MAN IN RUSSIA, BEING
JAILED, BEING HUMILIATED, LIVING THROUGH A DECADE IN PRISON AND
THEN BEING EXILED, WHEN HE GOT OUT WHAT HE DECIDE TODAY DO WAS
STAY INVOLVED IN RUSSIAN LIFE, STAY INVOLVED IN TRYING TO
PROMOTE CIVIC INSTITUTIONS AND POLITICAL OPPOSITION PARTIES IN
RUSSIA WHICH AS HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT WAS AN INCREDIBLY
DANGEROUS THING FOR HIM TO HAVE DONE BUT HE'S DONE IT AND ENDS
UP BEING AN IMPORTANT HORSE IN TERMS OF RUSSIAN POLITICAL LIFE.
THAT IN ITSELF IS IN DRAMATIC AND FASCINATING AND HE'S SUCH A
CHARISMATIC FIGURE IN THE SAME WAY THAT KHODORKOVSKY IS.
YOU CAN SEE HIS WIT EVEN IN HIS INTERVIEW WITH YOU BUT THE
DIFFERENCE IN RUSSIA, THE DIFFERENCE WITH PUTIN IS THAT
WHAT'S CONSTANTLY LOOMING OVER EVERY POINT OF CONFLICT WITH
PUTIN, ANYBODY WHO'S CHALLENGING, ANYBODY WHO'S
RISING TO THE POINT OF BEING INTERESTING IN TERMS OF OPPOSING
PUTIN, WHAT CONSTANTLY LOOMS OVER THAT IS YOUR EXPECTATION
THAT THEY WILL END UP DEAD. AND YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOT
AMERICA. THAT'S NOT HOW WE DO THINGS.
TO BE REMINDED IN THE PERSON OF KHODORKOVSKY OR ANY OF THESE
OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED, TO BE REMINDED ABOUT
WHAT IT MEANS TO TAKE PUTIN'S APPROACH TO WORLD POLITICS, FOR
ME IT MAKES IT VERY SERIOUS. I'M INTERESTED IN THE DRAMA AND
THE INTRIGUE AND EVERYTHING. MAKES IT VERY SERIOUS THAT PUTIN
GOT THIS FAR INTO OUR OWN POLITICS.
IT IS NOT JUST A THREAT TO US. IT'S A MORTAL THREAT TO AMERICAN
POLITICS TO BRING SOMEBODY THIS FAR INTO IT WHO FREQUENTLY AND
WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCE KILLS HIS OPPONENTS.
>> RACHEL MADDOW, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> CONGRATULATIONS ON THE