>>> FOR 20 YEARS, OUR NEXT GUEST
WAS A HUGE AND VITAL AND
IMPORTANT PART OF OUR FAMILY
HERE AT MSNBC, DOING SOMETHING
THAT WAS EASY FOR HIM BUT HARD
FOR THE REST OF US, OFFERING HIS
STAPLE DIRECT, NO-NONSENSE
INTERVIEWS AND ALWAYS ASKING ALL
OF HIS GUESTS THE HARD
QUESTIONS.
IN HIS NEW MEMOIR, "THIS
COUNTRY: MY LIFE IN POLITICS AND
HISTORY," CHRIS MATTHEWS CHARTS
HIS AMERICAN STORY THROUGH HIS
LIFE AND CAREER, TALKING DEEPLY
WITH ABIDING FAITH ABOUT WHERE
WEVE BEEN AND WHERE HE HOPES
WELL GO.
GIVEN THE ONGOING CONVERSATION
ON THIS PROGRAM AND OVER THE
LAST TWO HOURS ABOUT THE
INSURRECTION AT OUR NATIONS
CAPITOL, I WANT TO READ THIS
FROM CHRISS NEW BOOK.
NO ONE COULD HAVE TRULY FORESEEN
HOW BADLY THE PRESIDENCY OF
DONALD TRUMP WOULD END.
AFTER LOSING THE 2020 ELECTION,
TRUMP TRIED EVERY LEGAL AND PR
TRICK HE COULD TO OVERTURN THOSE
RESULTS.
WELL PAST THE RATIFICATION OF
THE VOTE IN THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE ON DECEMBER 14th, HE
CONTINUED TO INSIST TO HIS
74.2 MILLION VOTERS THAT HE HAD
WON IN A LANDSLIDE.
IN THOSE LAST MONTHS OF 2020, I
THOUGHT THAT WAS THE WORST THING
HE COULD DO AS PRESIDENT.
WHEN I WATCHED IN JANUARY 2021
TOLD ME I HAD BEEN WRONG.
THE ONLY THING WORSE WOULD HAVE
BEEN IF HED GOTTEN HIMSELF
RE-ELECTED.
FOUR MORE YEARS OF THIS GUY
MIGHT HAVE BEEN A NATIONAL
HORROR, IMPOSSIBLE TO FULLY
OBLITERATE.
JOINING US NOW IS MY FRIEND T
LONG-TIME HOST OF MSNBCS
"HARDBALL" AND THE AUTHOR
OF "THIS COUNTRY."
HI THERE, CHRIS MATTHEWS.
>> NICOLE, ITS GREAT TO BE ON
YOUR VERY POPULAR SHOW.
YOU ARE REALLY DOING THE JOB
HERE AT MS, REALLY, AND YOU KNOW
YOU ARE.
TWO HOURS?
COME ON.
>> YOU --
>> THAT IS THE BEST.
IT IS.
>> I THINK YOU WARNED ME ABOUT
THE TWO-HOUR THING AND I SHOULD
HAVE LISTENED TO YOU.
>> I DID.
GOOD FOR YOU.
BY THE WAY, JUST TO FOLLOW UP ON
THIS, THE OPENING, I LOVED HOW
YOU OPENED IT, BECAUSE TRUMP --
I DIDNT START OFF DISLIKING THE
GUY.
THERE WAS NOVICE VISCERAL PROBLE
WITH ME AND HIM, I COVERED HIM
FOR YEARS WHEN HE WAS CLOWNING
AROUND, TALKING ABOUT RUNNING
FOR PRESIDENT, BUT HES UP THERE
WITH BENEDICT ARNOLD RIGHT NOW.
HES A TRAITOR TO OUR BELIEFS.
THE GREAT THING ABOUT OUR
COUNTRY IS THE INTERTWINING OF
ELECTIONS AND FREEDOM.
THEY GO TOGETHER.
YOU DONT HAVE FREEDOM WITHOUT
ELECTIONS, YOU DONT HAVE
ELECTIONS WITHOUT FREEDOM AND
HES CUT RIGHT THROUGH THAT BY
SAYING THE ELECTION DIDNT
HAPPEN, ALMOST LIKE A DEVELOPING
COUNTRY.
HE LOST AN ELECTION, SO HE SAID
IT WAS RIGGED.
COME ON.
HILLARY CLINTON, AL GORE, JOHN
McCAIN, JOHN KERRY, EVERYBODY,
MITT ROMNEY, THEY KNOW HOW TO
LOSE.
IT TAKES GUTS AND PATRIOTISM TO
STAND BEFORE YOUR VOTERS AND
SAY, I DID MY BEST.
I LOST.
THIS OTHER PERSON IS PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES, LETS BE
LOYAL TO THIS OTHER PERSON.
THEY ALL HAVE DONE IT GOING BACK
TO THE FIRST PERSON THAT LOST, I
GUESS JOHN ADAMS AND THIS GUY
CANT DO IT.
HES NOT MAN ENOUGH TO WALK
BEFORE HIS PEOPLE AND SAY, I
BLEW IT.
AND MY MISHANDLING OF CORONA,
ALL THE WAY, AND I GOT AN
OPPONENT WHOS A PRETTY POPULAR
GUY, JOE BIDEN, AND HE BEAT ME.
IM GOING TO LIVE WITH IT
BECAUSE THATS THE WAY THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT THEIR
COUNTRY RUN, WHERE PEOPLE WALK
AWAY FROM POWER IN THE WAY THAT
GEORGE WASHINGTON WALKED AWAY
FROM POWER.
HE DIDNT CHOOSE TO BE A
DICTATOR.
HE COULD HAVE BEEN A DICTATOR.
HE WENT RIGHT BACK TO VIRGINIA
AND SAID, I BELIEVE IN AMERICA.
AND THAT MEANS GOING HOME WHEN
YOUR JOB IS THROUGH. IS THROUGH.
>> I WORKED ON JOHN McCAINS
SUCCESSION SPEECH TO OBAMA.
JOHN McCAIN FELT LIKE IT WAS ONE
OF THE MOST IMPORTANT SPEECHES
OF HIS CAREER.
BUT YOU JUST SAID SOMETHING, AS
YOU ALWAYS DO, THAT GETS TO THE
CRUX OF IT.
THE CONCESSION SPEECH IS ABOUT
YOUR PATRIOTISM.
DO YOU HAVE THE CONCLUSION THAT
TRUMP WAS NEVER PATRIOTIC AT
ALL?
>> I THINK IT WAS A WORK IN
PROGRESS.
HE GOT WORSE AS HE WENT ON.
HE CERTAINLY DID.
I MEAN, HE MUST HAVE NOTICED
THAT HE LOST THE FIRST RACE --
HE LOST THE FIRST RACE BY FOUR
MILLION.
THE SECOND ONE BY SEVEN MILLION.
THESE WERE NOT CLOSE CALLS.
FOR HIM TO LIE AND SAY THAT HE
WON IS DISTURBED.
YOU HAVE TO WONDER WHAT DO THEY
THINK OF DEMOCRACY?
WHAT DO THINK THEY THINK OF
THEIR VOTE?
WHAT ARE THEY THINKING WHEN THEY
SAY TRUMP GOT RE-ELECTED KNOWING
HE DID NOT.
KNOWING HE DID NOT.
THE STATES HE WON IN 16 HE WON
BY SQUEAKERS, HE LOST BY
SQUEAKERS.
OF COURSE ARIZONA HE LOST.
ITS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS HE LOST.
AND THEN ON THE 5th HE SAID I
DIDNT.
FIRST OF ALL, HE SAYS, HE WON,
WHAT HE DIDNT.
AND THEN WE HAD JANUARY 6th,
WHICH HE ENCOURAGED TO HAPPEN.
AND THEN TWO-THIRDS OF THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY, UP TO 70%
ACTUALLY, SAID TRUMPS RIGHT HE
WON.
THEN WE HAVE THE GENERAL,
MICHAEL FLYNN, WHO I DIDNT
THINK WAS THIS BAD WHEN WE FIRST
MET HIM SAYING WE SHOULD HAVE A
MILITARY COUP.
THIS IS A NATURAL PROGRESSION.
IT IS A PROLOGUE TO SOMETHING
WORSE.
AND IF HE HAD GOTTEN RID OF IT,
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING
WORSE.
THANK GOD HE HAS NO
CONSTITUTIONAL POWER LEFT.
HE CANT DO ANYTHING EXCEPT
TALK.
THE THING ABOUT THIS COUNTRY IS
I CARE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY.
A THIRD OF IT BELIEVES THIS
TRAP, THIS CRAP, THIS LIE ABOUT
OUR HISTORY.
AND ITS REALLY THE FIRST TIME
IN OUR HISTORY -- THIS HAPPENS
ALL THE TIME IN AFRICA AND OTHER
PARTS OF THE WORLD THAT ARE NEW
TO DEMOCRACY WHERE THE WINNER
ARRESTS EVERYBODY AND THE LOSER
CLAIMS IT WAS A RIGGED ELECTION.
BUT WE KNOW OUR ELECTIONS ARE
HONEST IN THIS COUNTRY.
THEY REALLY ARE HONEST AND
THEYRE DECIDED BY 70,000 VOTES.
THESE ARENT SQUEAKERS THAT YOU
CAN EXPLAIN BY SOMEBODY CHEATING
HERE OR THERE.
WE KNOW WHO WON.
IS TRUMP JUST A LIAR OR IS HE
NUTS?
YOU TELL ME.
MAYBE HES A MIX.
BUT WE KNOW HE LOST.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
LIAR OR NUTS?
>> I THINK HES A GUY THAT
DOESNT PAY HIS BILLS.
YOU KNOW, FOR YEARS WE HEARD HE
DOESNT PAY HIS BILLS.
THATS THE DEBT OF SAYING YOU
LOSE WHEN YOU LOSE.
THATS THE DEAL.
YOU SHOULDNT RUN FOR OFFICE IF
YOU CANT WALK UP TO THE
COUNTRY, THE STATE OR THE COUNTY
OR WHATEVER.
YOU SHOULDNT RUN FOR OFFICE IF
YOU CANT ACCEPT DEFEAT BECAUSE
ITS PART OF THE GAME.
IT IS A GAME IN THAT SENSE
BECAUSE EVERY TIME THERE IS AN
ELECTION SOMEBODY LOSES.
MAYBE A NUMBER OF THE PEOPLE IN
THE PRIMARY LOSE.
YOU HAVE TO GO BEFORE THEM AND
SAY I LOST.
I WISH I HAD WON, BUT THIS OTHER
PERSON IS NOW THE CANDIDATE OF
OUR PARTY.
AND IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.
IM A ROMANTIC ABOUT THIS,
POLITICS.
I THINK ABOUT ADDELIE STEVENSON
WHO SAID, IM TOO OLD TO CRY,
BUT IT HURTS TOO MUCH.
GOING BACK TO THE PENNSYLVANIA
HOTEL ACROSS THIS PENN STATION
AND STANDING IN FRONT OF HER
PEOPLE AND SAYING THE RIGHT
THING, THAT TRUMP IS PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES.
OR RICHARD NIXON LOSING A KWEEK
SQUEAKER.
IT WAS SO CLOSE IT WAS PAINFUL.
AND THERE HE HAD -- HE WENT AND
MET WITH JACK KENNEDY.
HE CERTIFIED THE VICTORY FOR
JACK KENNEDY, AND HE DIDNT WANT
TO DO IT.
HE HAD HIS SUSPICIONS ABOUT WHAT
HAPPENED IN CHICAGO WITH MAYOR
DALEY
DALEY.
THERE WAS NO REPUBLICAN PARTY IN
60.
NOBODY WANTED TO BE POLL
WATCHERS.
WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH BALLOTS HE
GOT WITH THE HELP OF A FEW GOOD
FRIENDS.
WE KNEW WHAT THAT MEANT.
HE DIDNT WANT TO RUIN OUR
COUNTRY AND SAY LETS JOIN THE
COLD WAR.
WE KNEW WE NEEDED TO BE UNITED.
WHERE IS THAT FROM TRUMP?
HE SAYS AMERICA FIRST.
IT WASNT AMERICA FIRST WHEN HE