Ambassador, thank you for
being here tonight.
I mean, I just wonder,
as someone who worked
inside the West Wing
when Donald Trump was president.
What is it like for you
to see his mug shot tonight?
Well, I thought it was.
As with most things
Trump does carefully staged,
they must have thought about what
look they wanted. He could have smiled.
He could have looked benign.
Instead, he looks like a thug.
And I think it's intended to be
a sign of intimidation
against the prosecutors and judges.
That's what they picked.
And we'll see that picture everywhere.
So you think they actually spent time
deciding you
should he smile
and this should he have this scowl
that he appears to have gone with?
Almost as much time as they spent combing
his hair
What are you?
He posted the mug shot,
you know,
shortly after
on his own social media account,
along with the phrase never surrender.
I mean,
a bit ironic given
he had actually just surrendered
at the Fulton County Jail behind me.
But how do you expect him
to try to use this
to his political advantage
as he's running for president?
Well, I think in the same way, he's
he's used the other three indictments.
And I think the evidence is
that the indictments
have proven the law
of diminishing
marginal utility of anything.
They're not
they're not undercutting his support.
They're building it up.
And it just underlines to me
that a lot of what's going to happen
before these trials begin
is going to pass
essentially unnoticed
in the political realm.
The real issue here
is that one or more of the trials go to
occur before the election
and then whether he's convicted
or acquitted.
And that's why
I think this scheduling date
for Ken Cheeseburger, his trial in the
Georgia court
in this case
is such a stunning development.
I don't know what strategy
his lawyers were following.
I've seen it reported
people have said on your show
that that he was
that his lawyers were taking a gamble,
that it was a bluff.
If that's the case, they ought to be
convicted of Malpractise.
They must have a strategy.
They must think they've got some idea
what to do here.
And I think the consequences
are potentially enormous.
If she's pro is acquitted, given his role
as the author, according
to the indictment of the
memos that laid out the
the alternative Lecter strategy,
if he's acquitted or gets a hung jury,
which they will spin, is an acquittal,
I think that's going to have
an unbelievable political effect.
I think I had been
looking simply at the Trump trial.
But if cheeseburger goes ahead
and is acquitted,
it vindicates Trump's narrative.
Now, if he's convicted,
I think it obviously
cuts in the other direction
and it could happen in two months.
Yeah, but you're saying it's essentially
a risky move
because what they're arguing
is that he wanted a speedy trial.
You saw Funny Willis respond and say,
okay, let's do it in October.
And then the judge
signed off on that today,
but saying that only applying
to Ken cheeseburger,
not to to Donald Trump
and the other 17 co-defendants
But but that's the point that's what
if his
if his attorneys
had thought this through carefully
they believe that separate separate
cheese grow from this massive complicated
rest of the case maybe cheeseburgers.
Best chance to get an acquittal
and that's what they're counting on
that they can simplify
and expedite this particular case.
And my point is
the thing that I think will
impress voters
is not all these pretrial maneuverings
and extensive discussions
about the removal authority
which which I'd also be happy
to answer questions on.
But what is the consequence politically
if cheeseburger is acquitted
or if he's convicted?
That's what
that's what voters will understand,
that this guy was convicted by a jury or
acquitted by a jury.
And it could have enormous
political impact
You know, we've been talking to our
our sources in Trump's legal world.
He just brought on a new attorney today.
And what they have not done yet,
but we believe they plan to do
is to try to move this from a state court
to a federal court,
arguing that because of the office
he held at the time, that
that is where this should happen.
What do you make of that argument?
If they do pursue it
Well, remember, Trump's ultimate
strategy is always delay
and by moving to remove it.
That throws another wrinkle into it.
And and if if the removal is accepted.
And finally,
Willis tries to get it
remanded from the district court.
My memory may be imperfect here,
but I think that's an appealable order
for both sides,
which means you're
stretching the time out,
going to the 11th Circuit
and then maybe the Supreme Court
just to decide the removal question.
I think
this is actually simpler
than than a lot of the discussion here.
A president who is running for reelection
is not just the president
he's also a political candidate.
He he has First Amendment rights
like any other political candidate,
but he doesn't have a First Amendment
right to commit a crime.
None of what Trump did here
is part of his presidential duties.
Just like when Al Gore contested
George W Bush in Florida
that didn't have anything
to do with his vice presidential duties.
He was doing it as a candidate
and he was permitted to do it
because he followed the legal path
that Florida permitted.
So I think actually the case
should not be removed
because what these defendants did,
they did in a First Amendment capacity.
And the notion
that the Hatch Act was amended to cover
officials in the executive office
of the president,
which Fani Willis
has cited in her briefs,
I think is unconstitutional.
I think political appointees
in the executive
branch of the federal government
can engage in political activity.
It's the career people
you want to protect from pressure
to engage in political activity.
So I think the case should
remain in Georgia courts,
but I think it's highly
likely it will be removed
Well, and Mark Meadows
is making that same argument.
We'll see if he's successful.
But you've toyed
with the idea
of running for president in this election
as a Republican.
What went through your mind
and what does it say
about the Republican Party last night
that when those candidates were on stage
and were asked
if they could support Trump,
if he had been convicted on charges,
many of them raised their hands
Well, I think there were six wrong
answers and two right answers.
You cannot believe in a law and order
philosophy and say it applies
to everybody except Donald Trump.
Obviously, if he is convicted
before the election, he'll appeal.
He'll have that right.
But in any sane society, somebody
who is a convicted felon
should step aside.
I mean, the rules of the Republican Party
should provide that
if their presidential nominee
is convicted, he'll be removed
from that candidacy and
and the party should pick somebody else.
That's the argument.
I think the
the current candidates
are going to have to make against Trump
when they get to Iowa and New Hampshire
because of the
the documents case
is the only
case that now
even has a tentative trial date
in May of next year.
After most of the Republican caucuses
and primaries.
So they're going to have to tell voters,
be very careful
about voting for Donald Trump,
because by the time
we get to our convention, in August,
he may be a convicted felon
You once
described Rudy Giuliani
as a hand grenade.
Who is going to blow everyone up.
He turned himself in.
Also, here in Georgia,
we've also seen his mug shot.
Does it make you feel like you were right
Well, this is not a good place to be in.
I mean, Donald Trump
may be able to turn it
to his political advantage,
but everybody around him is going to be
I think,
blown away
by the blast
effect of
of these of these various cases.
This this is the end of the career,
the legal career
for a lot of the lawyers
who are co-defendants
in the Georgia case.
Trump has an amazing way
of escaping the damage
he causes to everybody else.
But I think the odds here are
a lot of careers are
ruined because of this.