HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US, MR. CHAIRMAN.
AND AS RACHEL AND I WERE
DISCUSSING AT THE BEGINNING OF
THIS HOUR, WE WERE WONDERING
WHAT YOU KNEW AND WHEN YOU KNEW
IT ABOUT KONSTANTIN KILIMNIK
PASSING INFORMATION TO RUSSIAN
INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.
>> LAWRENCE, AS YOU POINTED OUT,
THE CHAIN HERE IS THE TRUMP
CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN PAUL MANAFORT
AND HIS DEPUTY CHAIRMAN ARE
GIVING POLLING DATA AND
STRATEGIC INFORMATION ABOUT
THEIR STRATEGY IN THE MIDWEST TO
KILIMNIK, WHO THE DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN ACKNOWLEDGES THEY KNEW
WAS A SPY OR THEY BELIEVED WAS A
SPY.
AND IN FACT AS THE TREASURY
DEPARTMENT HAS ACKNOWLEDGED WAS
A SPY AND IS PROVIDING THIS TO
RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE.
AND NOT JUST RUSSIAN
INTELLIGENCE, BUT THE SAME
SERVICES THAT ARE INVOLVED IN
TRYING TO HELP TRUMP WIN IN THAT
ELECTION.
THAT’S WHAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD
CALL COLLUSION, AND I DON’T KNOW
HOW THE NO COLLUSION CROWD
EXPLAINS THAT.
SO IN TERMS OF WHEN DID WE KNOW
THIS, WE CERTAINLY KNEW FOR A
LONG TIME THAT THE TRUMP
CAMPAIGN WAS GIVING INTERNAL
POLLING DATA AND STRATEGIC
INFORMATION TO SOMEONE LINKED TO
RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE.
BUT THIS GOES FURTHER AND SAYS
THAT THIS WAS AN INTELLIGENCE
AGENT.
THAT WAS THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEE’S BIPARTISAN
CONCLUSION, AND NOW WE KNOW THAT
THIS INFORMATION GOT BACK TO
THESE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.
SO PRETTY DIRECT CHAIN HERE.
>> CAN YOU TELL US IF THIS
WAS -- IF THIS IS NEWLY
DEVELOPED INFORMATION, DEVELOPED
DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION,
OR WHETHER THIS WAS KNOWN WITHIN
THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY
DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?
>> YOU KNOW, THAT’S A GOOD
QUESTION.
WE CERTAINLY KNEW THAT THERE
WERE LINKS BETWEEN KILIMNIK AND
RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE.
BUT THIS STATEMENT BY TREASURY
GOES FURTHER THAN ANYTHING I’VE
SEEN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY
RELATE SO FAR.
NOW, IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT
THE AGENCIES HAD REACHED THIS
CONCLUSION BEFORE, AND I DON’T
KNOW WHETHER THAT WAS SHARED OR
NOT SHARED.
BUT IT’S THE FIRST TIME THAT I’M
SEEING IT IN PRINT AND CERTAINLY
THE FIRST TIME IT’S BEING MADE
PUBLIC.
>> WHAT ELSE DO YOU THINK WE
MIGHT END UP LEARNING?
IN WHAT AREAS MIGHT WE END UP
LEARNING NEW THINGS ABOUT 2016
OR 2020 ELECTIONS?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE’LL
CONTINUE TO LEARN MORE, AND THIS
IS FRANKLY THE CASE WITH THE
INTELLIGENCE PROCESS, AND THAT
IS YOU MAY LEARN ABOUT PAST
EVENTS WHEN YOU GET NEW
INFORMATION, WHEN YOU GET NEW
DATA, BECAUSE IT’S HISTORIC
DATA.
IT’S NOT DATA ABOUT THE PRESENT.
SO HARD TO TELL, BUT I THINK AS
WE’RE SEEING NOW WITH THIS
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT
MANAFORT, THAT EITHER MUELLER
HAD THE INFORMATION BUT WAS
TRYING TO PROTECT SOURCES AND
METHODS, OR THIS IS TRULY NEW
INFORMATION THAT CAME ABOUT
EITHER DURING THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION OR DURING THE
BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND I’M
NOT CLEAR EXACTLY WHEN THAT
POINT WAS.
>> WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE
SANCTIONS AS THEY WERE ISSUED
TODAY?
>> VERY POWERFUL.
IT WILL DEFINITELY PUT A CRIMP
IN THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY, AND IT’S
THE KIND OF SANCTION THAT THE
BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CAN TURN
THE SCREWS ON SO THEY HAVE THE
FLEXIBILITY TO REALLY CLAMP DOWN
FURTHER IF THE RUSSIANS ESCALATE
OR CONTINUE TO ENGAGE IN THIS
KIND OF MALIGN CONDUCT, THIS
KIND OF ELECTION INTERFERENCE,
THIS KIND OF CYBER HACKING OR
ATTACKING.
I LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY’RE
GOING AFTER THESE RUSSIAN
PRIVATE COMPANIES THAT ARE
AIDING IN THESE DESTRUCTIVE
HACKS AND THAT THEY’RE GOING
AFTER INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE
CULPABILITY IN TERMS OF RUSSIA’S
ILLEGAL OCCUPATION OF CRIMEA.
SO IT’S PRETTY DRAMATIC, I HAVE
TO SAY.
YOU KNOW, WHEN I SAW IT, I
THOUGHT THANK GOD WE HAVE A
PRESIDENT AGAIN WHO’S WILLING TO
STAND UP TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.
>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT
MEANS IN TERMS OF OUR RELATIONS
WITH RUSSIA NOW, THAT VLADIMIR
PUTIN UNDERSTANDS CLEARLY AS OF
TODAY MORE VIVIDLY THAN BEFORE
EVEN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
DEALING WITH A TRUMP PRESIDENCY
AND A BIDEN PRESIDENCY?
>> WELL, FIRST OFF, HE KNOWS
HE’S NOT GOING TO MANIPULATE
THIS PRESIDENT SIMPLY BY
FLATTERING HIM, PRAISING HIM IN
SOME WAY, THAT HE HAS TO FEAR
THIS PRESIDENT.
THIS PRESIDENT IS WILLING TO
FOLLOW THROUGH.
THESE ARE NOT HOLLOW WORDS THAT
THE PRESIDENT IS TAKING ACTION.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW,
I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS
BEING VERY SMART AND BEING VERY
OPEN AND SAYING, LOOK, WE’RE
WILLING TO MEET WITH YOU.
WE’RE WILLING TO SIT DOWN WITH
YOU.
WE’RE WILLING TO FIND COMMON
GROUND ON THINGS LIKE THE
LIMITATION OF NUCLEAR ARMS.
BUT YOU ENGAGE IN THIS OTHER
STUFF, AND WE’RE GOING TO COME
AFTER YOU, AND WE’RE NOT FOOLING
AROUND.
AND THAT’S, I THINK, THE WAY YOU
NEED TO TREAT THE RUSSIANS,
WHICH IS DON’T TAKE THEM BY
SURPRISE.
TELL THEM WHAT YOU’RE GOING TO
DO, AND IF THEY CROSS THE LINE,
YOU GOT ITTO MAKE SURE YOU DO IT
>> AND WHAT OTHER DEVICES,
TECHNIQUES, STRATEGIES DOES THE
ADMINISTRATION HAVE BEYOND
SANCTIONS IF THERE’S MORE TO
RESPOND TO?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THE MOST
POWERFUL THING -- AND SANCTIONS,
YOU KNOW, TRULY HAVE THEIR
LIMITS, AND WE FOUND OUT JUST
HOW LIMITED THE IMPACT OF
SANCTIONS CAN BE.
BUT WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION CAN
DO IS REBUILD OUR INTERNATIONAL
ALLIANCES, REBUILD A
MULTINATIONAL STRATEGY WHEN IT
COMES TO CONSTRAINING BAD ACTORS
LIKE RUSSIA.
WE CAN STRENGTHEN THE
INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS THAT
HAVE ATROPHIED OVER THE LAST
FOUR YEARS THAT GIVE TEETH TO
THE RULE OF LAW AND THE RULE --
YOU KNOW, AND THE RULE OF THE
ROAD.
AND SO BUILDING THOSE
INTERNATIONAL PARTNERSHIPS
FRANKLY IS SOMETHING THAT
TERRIFIES THE RUSSIANS.
BUT MORE THAN THAT, IT ALSO
TERRIFIES THE CHINESE.
CHINA HAS BEEN REALLY ABLE TO
EXPLOIT THE FACT THAT
TRADITIONAL ALLIES OF OURS HAVE