It's the Real News.
I'm Ben Norton.
Donald Trump's nominee for the new director of the CIA, Gina Haspel, was grilled in a
Senate confirmation hearing on Wednesday, May 9.
Haspel is notorious for overseeing a so-called black site, that is, an overseas prison where
detainees were tortured by the CIA.
Haspel also participated in the destruction of evidence documenting this torture at a
black site in Thailand.
On the day of her hearing, 115 former U.S. ambassadors sent a letter to the Senate expressing
opposition to her nomination.
The former diplomats wrote that the Senate should thoroughly investigate Haspel, and
if she, quote, "played a role in torture or other forms of detainee abuse, or the destruction
of evidence relating to such activities, we urge you to reject her nomination."
End quote.
In the Senate hearing, Haspel repeatedly refused to say whether or not the CIA's past use of
torture was immoral.
Senator, I believe that CIA officers to whom you referred-.
It's a yes or no answer.
Do you believe the previous interrogation techniques were immoral?
I'm not asking do you believe they were legal.
I'm asking do you believe they were immoral.
Senator, I believe that CIA did extraordinary work to prevent another attack on this country
given the legal tools that we were authorized to use.
Please answer yes or no.
That is Gina Haspel, the CIA director nominee, at the Senate confirmation hearing.
Numerous whistleblowers have spoken out against Haspel's nomination.
Former CIA officer Ray McGovern disrupted the Senate hearing in protest of Haspel's
nomination.
Police violently brutalized the 84-year-old CIA whistleblower on camera.
Ex-CIA analyst John Kiriakou, who was imprisoned for exposing the CIA's use of torture, has
also publicly opposed Hapel's nomination.
And NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden likewise tweeted, quote" "If the Congress confirms
Gina Haspel, who admitted to participating in a torture program and personally writing
the order to destroy evidence of that crime, is qualified to head the CIA it says more
about our government than it does about her.".
Joining us to discuss the CIA scandal is Robert Scheer.
Scheer is a renowned journalist who has covered politics for more than 50 years.
He is the former editor of the legendary magazine Ramparts, and is today the editor in chief
of the website Truthdig, where he writes a regular column.
Scheer is also the author of 10 books.
Thanks for joining me.
Bob.
OK.
Should we jump right in?
Why don't I just say something about that, because I know Ray.
I also worked at the Los Angeles Times for 29 years covering a lot of these issues, and
Ray McGovern was always a highly respected source.
We should make it clear, there were two CIA.
There is the analysis side, which was supposed to be the main purpose of the CIA.
To gather information, to analyze, to figure out what was going on in the world.
And Ray McGovern was a stellar member of that part of the CIA.
And the information that they came up with, whether it was about the old Soviet Union
or what was going on with terrorism and so forth, has generally been proven to be accurate.
The only problem is the government, different governments didn't listen to what the analysis,
analysts were saying.
And Ray McGovern himself briefed the president of the United States on a number of occasions.
He was a high-ranking expert on Russia, on what was happening in the world.
And to have a man of that quality and that patriotism, that seriousness of purpose, be
treated as if he was a bank robber on speed or something was obscene.
And there are plenty of people around the world who know of Ray McGovern ' s work, of
his writing, and the idea that he was treated in that way, it's horrific.
And at a hearing in which you're investigating, really, the dark side.
That's what Gina Haspel comes from.
These are the people who do all the mischief and that's the side of the CIA that has basically
gotten it wrong time after time.
The Bay of Pigs, you know, figuring out what was happening with terrorism before 9/11.
Not talking to the FBI.
The torture program.
You could go through one chapter after another.
Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
And that's the part of the CIA that's a travesty, a stain, that dark stain on American history,
and has misled us.
And has misled us by using secrecy.
They're not accountable.
So to take someone associated with the worst aspects, this is what Ray McGovern was trying
to say.
Someone that was associated with the worst aspects of the CIA and make them head of the
whole thing after, after we have learned that she destroyed evidence needed to know whether
crimes were committed, she destroyed evidence that we had a right to have.
She was involved in torture.
No one is even questioning that.
And she was involved in the coverup.
To take someone from that wing of the CIA, the dark, miserable, murderous, deceiving
side, and put them in was particularly offensive to someone like Ray McGovern, who, after all,
was trying to enlighten us.
And he knows how much damage that side of the CIA did.
He spent a lot of time once he retired exposing their arrogance and, you know, how, and their
embrace of violence as opposed to logic and fact.
Yeah.
On the subject of Ray, in fact, we have a video clip here.
This is a shocking clip of former 27-year CIA analyst Ray McGovern disrupting the Senate
hearing in protest of Gina Haspel's nomination.
And this, this video clip shows police violently pulling him out, he's, again, 84 years old,
and throwing him onto the ground.
And Ray says that his arm has been dislocated in this.
Please watch here.
So Bob, can you respond to this?
I mean, you spoke a little bit about it.
But specifically the irony that you have a veteran CIA analyst who is speaking out against
the use of torture and violence by the CIA, who is in turn violently assaulted by police
and thrown out of the room onto the floor.
Well, I think you put it well.
I just want to make a point here.
The CIA is an agency that is out of control, and they are not doing the job that they were
created to do.
They're not making us safer.
They keep getting it wrong.
And they get it wrong not because of their brilliant analysts like Ray McGovern, who
generally develop an accurate view of the world, and it's complex, and they try to inform
the politicians.
That's not where the damage is coming from.
The damage is coming from the gangster element.
The, the people who believe assassination, and talk about meddling in elections, these
people have meddled in almost every election that's taken place in the post-World War II
period.
And they've they've engaged in assassinations and assassination plots at one time, whether
it was in Cuba, whether it was Eastern Europe, whether it was the Middle East.
There's no question about that dark, horrible record.
And so the torture is really, you know, sort of the ultimate evidence of how out of control
and how much of a violation of everything a country is supposed to stand for, what they
represent.
And to pick someone from, you can't ask her any questions.
You know, this is a professional liar, by the way.
This is a woman who is trained to lie.
This is a woman who's lied about most of the things in her professional life.
To expect her to be accountable about the super-secret agency when she spent her life
denying the value of truth, denying the value of logic, never being held accountable for
their lives including whether torture worked.
You know, all of the evidence is clear that torture even though it just, aside from being
profoundly immoral and a horrible example to the world, also didn't produce any credible
evidence.
On the contrary it produced error.
And at the same time, here is someone who's taken from that world of error and deceit,
distortion, violence, and you're making her in charge of the whole agency.
You know, and that's been presented as somehow a victory for women.
If you're against her, you're against women breaking through the glass ceiling.
I mean, it's a nutty view.
I think it was deliberately done by Donald Trump to burnish his reputation, because he's
known to have such a hostile attitude towards women.
Oh, ok, I'll show you a woman who's even nastier than I am, you know.
And that's who you have now.
And I mean, it's really quite depressing.
Well, unfortunately we'll have to end our discussion there.
But we were joined by Robert Scheer, who is a longtime award-winning journalist.
He is the editor in chief of Truthdig, and also a longtime columnist.
We were speaking about Gina Haspel who is the new nomination for CIA director.
Thanks for joining us, Bob.
Thank you.
Reporting for the Real News, I'm Ben Norton.