>>> TODAY MARKS THE 74th ANNIVERSARY OF THE UNITED STATES
BOMBING OF THE JAPANESE CITY OF HIROSHIMA, THE LAST USE OF
ATOMIC WEAPONRY BY A COUNTRY IN WARFARE AGAINST ANOTHER.
WHILE THE BOMBING BROUGHT ABOUT THE END OF WORLD WAR II, IT DID
SO AT A TREMENDOUS LOSS.
I SPOKE WITH PAUL MUSGRAVE, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL
SCIENCE AT UMASS AMHERST TO DISCUSS THE HISTORY AND THE
LESSONS LEARNED.
>> WELL, I THINK THAT WE HAVE LEARNED A LOT.
WE'VE LEARNED ABOUT HOW THIS WAS VIEWED IN JAPAN.
I MEAN, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SUCH A TREMENDOUS EXPLOSIVE
POWER, THAT THE EARLY REPORTS WEREN'T REALLY BELIEVED.
IT TOOK A WHILE, A COUPLE OF DAYS IN THE GOVERNMENT TO REALLY
UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON.
WE'VE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT THE DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THIS WAS
JUST A WEAPON OR WAR OR A SIGNAL TO THE SOVIET UNION.
WE HAVE LEARNED A LOT MORE ABOUT THE PROCESS BY WHICH THE UNITED
STATES DECIDED TO USE THE BOMB.
THAT THERE WERE THREE CITIES THAT WERE POTENTIALLY GOING TO
BE SUFFERING THE ATOMIC BOMB ON AUGUST 6, BUT IT WASN'T CLEAR
WHICH ONE WOULD ACTUALLY BE THE VICTIM.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, ONCE THAT PROGRAM HAD STARTED, IT
CONTINUED WITH THE SECOND BOMBING, AT WHICH POINT HARRY
TRUMAN DIDN'T KNOW HE ORDERED A SECOND BOMBING AND ORDERED A
STOP TO THE BOMBINGS.
WE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT HOW THOSE DAYS PROGRESSED.
>> I KNOW MILITARY LEADERS SUGGESTED, LISTEN, IF WE GO INTO
JAPAN AND PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND THE CASUALTIES WOULD BE
HORRIFIC.
THE QUICKEST WAY TO END THE WAR WAS TO USE THIS WEAPON.
CORRECT?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
I THINK THE MILITARY USEFULNESS OF THE BOMB TO BASICALLY ENHANCE
AMERICA'S PROGRAM OF CONTINUING STRATEGIC BOMBING AGAINST THE
JAPANESE HOMELAND FIT WITH THE WAY HOW THE WORLD WAS CONDUCTED
IN 1945.
>> GERMANY HAD ALREADY SURRENDERED?
>> YES. AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SECOND
WORLD WAR, IN THE ANTICIPATION OF THE INVASION, THE U.S.
MILITARY HAD BEGUN TO CREATE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PURPLE
HEARTS.
SO MANY WERE MADE AND NEVER USED, THEY WERE USED FOR DECADES
AFTERWARDS.
THIS WAS A MAJOR TURNING POINT TO HOW THE WAR WAS COMING TO A
CLOSE.
>> 130,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN HIROSHIMA.
ANOTHER BOMB WAS DROPPED ON NAGASAKI.
30,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.
THE TECHNOLOGY IS DIFFERENT AND THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION COMING
TO PEOPLE WAS MUCH SLOWER.
THEY DIDN'T REALIZE THE IMPACT AT THE TIME?
>> THEY DIDN'T REALIZE THE IMPACT.
IN FACT, THERE'S ONE GENTLEMAN WHO SURVIVED THE HIROSHIMA BOMB,
THERE ON A BUSINESS TRIP, MADE HIS WAY BACK TO HIS HOME FACTORY
TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO HIS BOSS, NO, THE ENTIRE CITY WAS
DESTROYED.
AND THEY WERE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IN NAGASAKI JUST AS
THE SECOND BOMB WENT OFF.
EVEN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SPENT MUCH OF ITS EARLY DAYS TRYING TO
EXPLAIN JUST HOW POWERFUL THIS WEAPON IS.
IT IS UNCLEAR WHETHER PRESIDENT TRUMAN UNDERSTOOD HIROSHIMA WAS
A CITY THAT HAD HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LIVE
THERING, NOT WIPING OUT A BASE, BUT PEOPLE LIVING THERE.
>> HOW DID AMERICANS TAKE IT. IS SOMBER AND TRAGIC.
TO THINK OF SO MANY PEOPLE DYING FROM THIS EVENT, BUT AT THE
TIME, WHERE WERE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ON THIS?
>> I THINK THERE IS A VARIETY OF REACTIONS.
I HAVE TO SAY THE FIRST REACTION WAS PROBABLY RELIEF.
RELIEF THERE WASN'T GOING TO BE AN INVASION, THIS WASN'T GOING
TO DRAG ON FOREVER AND SOLIDIFIED WITH THE SURRENDER OF
JAB -- JAPAN, AUGUST 15, A FEW DAYS LATER.
AMERICANS BEGAN TO WONDER WHAT IS THIS NEW WORLD WE'RE LIVING
IN.
THEY BEGAN TO WONDER WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THIS WERE USED ON
AMERICAN CITIES.
YOU HAVE A STORY IN THE NEW YORKER DETAILING WHAT THE
HIROSHIMA BOMB WAS LIKE.
QUICKLY IN MAGAZINES AND POPULAR CULTURE, THE NOTION OF AN ATOMIC
WAR AND NUCLEAR WAR BEGINS TO TAKE HOLD AND SHAPE HOW PEOPLE
VIEW THIS.
>> SO NEXT CAME THE COLD WAR, OF COURSE.
NOW THROUGH THE YEARS AND THROUGH THOSE DECADES AND NOW
THE COLD WAR HAS GONE, I HAVE HAD YOU IN A FEW TIMES TALKING
ABOUT NORTH KOREA AND IRAN AND THE FEAR OF COUNTRIES, YOU KNOW,
DEVELOPING SUCH CAPABILITY THAT WOULD BE SO DESTRUCTIVE.
HOW HAS WHAT HAPPENED THEN SHAPED U.S. POLICY NOW?
>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WAYS IT SHAPED U.S. POLICY.
FOR ONE, AROUND THE WORLD, THE GROUND TRUTH IS THE UNITED
STATES IS THE ONLY COUNTRY TO EVER USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN
ANGER.
IT HAS DONE SO TWICE.
THE WEAPONS THE UNITED STATES, RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA ARE
VASTLY MORE POWERFUL.
THEY BECAME SYNONYM FOR DREAD.
CONVINCING PEOPLE ATOMIC WARFARE IS DIFFERENT FROM NUCLEAR
WARFARE.
IT MAY HAVE PREVENTED A THIRD WORLD WAR, THE FEAR OF THE
WEAPONS BEING USED.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY HAVE BEEN RELEGATED TO MOSTLY THE
IMAGINATION.
SINCE IT HAS BEEN 74 YEARS, I WORRY SOMETIMES PEOPLE HAVE
FORGOTTEN HOW SHOCKING THIS WOULD BE.
WHEN WE CONTEMPLATE NORTH KOREA, A URANIUM PROGRAM, THERE IS A
LOT OF DISINFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IS
GOING ON.
THIS CONTINUES TO RESONATE BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND IT IS A
REAL THING THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AND ON THE OTHER HAND,
IT IS JUST THIS KIND OF METAPHOR FOR, YOU KNOW, UNSPEAKABLE
TRAUMA, WHICH HAS PROBABLY GONE A LITTLE BIT TOO FAR AND
DISTANCED US FROM THE REAL PHYSICAL HORROR OF WHAT COULD
HAVE HAPPENED.
>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SCIENTISTS INVOLVED IN THE
MANHATTAN PROJECT, THEY HAD REGRET AFTER SEEING WHAT THIS
TECHNOLOGY ALLOWED THEM TO DO.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
SOME OF THEM HAD MORE REGRET THAN OTHERS.
ROBERT OPPENHEIMER AND FOLKS WHO WENT ON TO BECOME ALMOST
ANTI-NUCLEAR ACTIVISTS.
OTHER PEOPLE STAYED INVOLVED IN THE BOMB PROGRAM.
EDWIN TELLER WENT OFF TO PUSH FOR AND DESIGN THE HYDROGEN
BOMB.
YOU HAD A FRACTURE IN THIS COMMUNITY.
OVER SEVERAL DECADES THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS SPENT
TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS, LITERALLY $7 TRILLION OR $8 TRILLION
DEFINING AND DEVELOPING A NUCLEAR WEAPONS COMPLEX.
THE SOVIETS, THE RUSSIANS HAVE DONE THE SAME AND OTHER NUCLEAR
WEAPONS COUNTRIES.
THESE ARE NOT THE MOST EXPENSIVE WEAPONS CREATED, BUT THE MOST
EXPENSIVE PROJECTS MANKIND HAS TAKEN ON.
>> AS YOU TEACH THIS IN CLASS AND I'M SURE THROUGH THE YEARS
YOU HAVE HAD LOTS OF DIFFERENT QUESTIONS FROM STUDENTS.
I THINK THE WAY THIS HISTORY HAS BEEN TAUGHT CHANGED A LOT
THROUGH THE YEARS?
>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
EVEN WHEN WE WERE IN SCHOOL, IT WAS A LESSON THAT THE BOMB WAS
USED AND THAT WAS THE END OF THE WAR.
THERE WASN'T ANYTHING COMPLICATED.
NOW THERE IS A MUCH GREATER AWARENESS OF THE MORAL
COMPLICATIONS, POLITICAL COMPLICATIONS AND ALSO A GREATER
INTEREST IN SEEING THIS AS RELEVANT TO US TODAY.
IF YOU IMAGINE A NUCLEAR WAR IN 2019 OR 2020, THE SCALE OF
DEVASTATION WILL BE A LOT CLOSER TO THE SCALE OF DEVASTATION IN
HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, INDIVIDUAL CITIES COMES UNDER
ATTACK INSTEAD OF A DAY AFTER WITH THOUSANDS OF NUCLEAR
WEAPONS USED SIMULTANEOUSLY.
MANY MORE COUNTRIES HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAN IN MY CHILDHOOD OR
MOST OF OUR AUDIENCE'S CHILDHOOD.
THERE IS A STEADY INCREASE IN THE POSSIBILITY THESE WEAPONS
COULD BE USED, INTENTIONALLY OR NOT.