QUOTE, SAD SITUATION. THIS WAS ONE BIG DAY.
TOMORROW WILL BE ANOTHER.
SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW.
NOW IT’S TIME FOR "THE LAST
WORD" WITH LAWRENCE O’DONNELL.
>> GOOD EVENING.
>> REALLY AN EXTRAORDINARY HOUR.
I THINK A LOT OF US AS WE WERE
WATCHING HAD ONE FUNDAMENTAL
QUESTION.
QUESTION. WHY IS HE DOING THIS?
WHY HAS HE DECIDED TO BASICALLY
TURN ON HIS FRIENDS IN THE
CONSPIRACY AND TALK ABOUT THE
CONSPIRACY?
CONSPIRACY? >> SO WHAT SEEMED TO EMERGE
TODAY WHEN I WAS TALKING WITH
HIM DURING THE COURSE OF THE
INTERVIEW AND TALKING WITH HIM
ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE WAS GOING
TO DO THE INTERVIEW IS THAT HE
REALLY BELIEVES THE MORE HE
MAKES PUBLIC ABOUT WHAT HE SAW
AND WHAT HE KNOWS AND WHAT HE
CAN DOCUMENT, THE SAFER HE IS.
HE’S, I THINK, WORRIED THAT IF
THIS -- IF THE INFORMATION THAT
HE’S GOT IS ONLY INSIDE HIS OWN
HEAD OR IN HIS OWN, YOU KNOW,
ELECTRONIC DEVICES AND THINGS
LIKE THAT THAT THAT’S TOO
EASY -- IT’S TOO EASY TO MAKE
THAT GO AWAY AND THAT TO THE
EXTENT THAT THE THINGS THAT HE
KNOWS CAN BE MADE PUBLIC AND
CHECKED OUT AND VERIFIED AND
DOCUMENTED AND INVESTIGATED, HE
FEELS LIKE, A THE TRUTH WILL
BECOME KNOWN AND HE WILL BE
SAFER.
SAFER. >> AND DOES HE -- DOES HE EXPECT
THIS TO HELP HIM IN THE CRIMINAL
CASE WHERE HE IS NOW A
DEFENDANT?
DEFENDANT? >> I THINK THAT’S IMPLICIT.
I MEAN, I THINK THAT HE IS
FACING VERY SERIOUS CHARGES IN
THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW
YORK.
YORK. HIS LAWYER HAS MADE CLEAR THAT
HE WANTS TO COOPERATE.
HE WANTS TO TESTIFY WITH
CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS IN
THE IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATION,
IMPLICIT IN THAT IS THE IDEA
THAT MAYBE I THINK IT WOULD HELP
HIM IN HIS CRIMINAL CASE.
BUT OBVIOUSLY NOTHING THAT HE’S
SAYING TODAY IS GOING TO HELP
HIM DIRECTLY IN HIS CRIMINAL
CASE, AND THE DECISION THAT CON
IMPRESSIONAL
IMPRESSIONAL CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS HAVE
TO MAKE I THINK IS GOING TO BE
INDEPENDENT OF WHETHER OR NOT
THEY THINK IT WOULD HELP HIM IN
HIS CRIMINAL CASE.
SO HIS AIMS AND THEIR LIKELY
OUTCOMES MAY DIVERGE, BUT HE WAS
WILLING TO HAVE THIS
CONVERSATION TODAY.
CONVERSATION TODAY. I WAS -- I WILL TELL YOU,
LAWRENCE, I WAS CONVINCED UNTIL
THE MOMENT I WAS SITTING THERE
TALKING TO HIM THAT IT WAS GOING
TO BE CANCELED.
>> OKAY.
>> OKAY. WHICH BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER
QUESTION.
QUESTION. WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT HOW
LONG THIS HAS BEEN IN THE WORKS
AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT?
>> IT’S BEEN A LONG TIME.
>> OKAY.
>> OKAY. >> IT HAS BEEN MONTHS THAT WE
HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE THIS
HAPPEN, AND SO, AGAIN, WE DIDN’T
EXPECT IT WHEN IT FINALLY CAME
THROUGH, IT CAME THROUGH VERY
QUICKLY.
QUICKLY. WE HAD BEEN WORKING ON THIS THE
WAY YOU WORK ON LOTS OF THINGS
THAT YOU THINK WON’T PAY OFF FOR
A VERY LONG TIME, BUT WHEN IT
CAME TOGETHER, IT ACTUALLY CAME
TOGETHER VERY, VERY QUICKLY, AND
RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE
INTERVIEW, MR. PARNAS AND HIS
LAWYER BASICALLY EXPLAINED,
LIKE, ONCE THE MATERIAL THAT
WE’D GIVEN TO THE INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEE WAS, A, SAFELY IN
THEIR HANDS AND, B, WE KNEW IT
WAS GOING TO BE CONVEYED TO THE
SENATE AND PART OF THIS TRIAL,
WE FELT LIKE, OKAY WE CAN TALK.
THEY DIDN’T WANT TO DO ANYTHING
THAT WOULD JEOPARDIZE THAT.
IT CAME TOGETHER VERY QUICKLY.
I WAS UP ALL NIGHT.
>> NOT SURPRISING.
>> YOU SAID THE MAGIC WORD
THERE, TRIAL.
THERE, TRIAL. NEAL KATYAL IS GOING TO JOIN US
IN THIS HOUR.
HIS LATEST "WASHINGTON POST"
PIECE IS ENTITLED LEV PARNAS AND
RUDY GIULIANI HAVE DEMOLISHED
TRUMP’S CLAIMS OF INNOCENCE.
DOES LEV PARNAS EXPECT OR IS HE
ANTICIPATING HAVING A ROLE IN
THE SENATE TRIAL?
>> I THINK HE’S REALISTIC ENOUGH
TO KNOW THAT IT’S NOT UP TO HIM,
AND THERE’S NO REASON -- I MEAN,
CERTAINLY HE WANTS TO TESTIFY.
THAT’S CLEAR.
THAT’S CLEAR. HIS LAWYER’S BEEN PUBLICLY CLEAR
ABOUT THAT FROM THE VERY
BEGINNING, BUT I THINK THAT
THEY’RE REALISTS IN KNOWING THAT
IT’S NOT UP TO THEM THE AND IF
IT HAPPENS IT HAPPENS, AND IF IT
DOESN’T, THERE’S NOTHING THEY
CAN DO TO FORCE IT.
BUT MAKING ALL THIS INFORMATION
AVAILABLE AND BEING WILLING TO
COMMENT IN A PUBLIC FORUM ON
WHAT IT MEANS IS THEM, YOU KNOW,
GETTING AS CLOSE AS THEY CAN IN
THE PUBLIC EYE TO TESTIFYING.
WHETHER OR NOT THEY END UP
ACTUALLY IN THE TRIAL OR IN A
DEPOSITION WITH ONE OF THE --
ONE OF THE INVESTIGATING
COMMITTEES IN THE HOUSE.
>> AND IN THIS STORY, INDIVIDUAL
ONE FROM THE MICHAEL COHEN
PROSECUTION HERE IN NEW YORK IS
LABELED IN THEIR COMMUNICATIONS
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER ONE. THEY KEEP SAYING YOU’RE GOING TO
TELL NUMBER ONE, AND LEV PARNAS
HAS THAT STORY WE HEARD IN THE
INVESTIGATION IN THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PRESIDENT
SPEAKING ON THE PHONE SO LOUDLY
THAT IF YOU ARE STANDING NEAR
THE PERSON HE IS SPEAKING TO,
YOU CAN HEAR HIM, IN THIS CASE
IT’S LEV PARNAS LISTENING TO, AS
HE PUT IT TO YOU THE PRESIDENT
SCREAMING AT RUDY GIULIANI AT
ONE POINT.
ONE POINT. >> YES.
>> YES. AND SO THAT CORROBORATES THE
TESTIMONY THAT WE HEARD DURING
THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY ABOUT
BYSTANDERS IS AND PEOPLE AT THE
SAME LUNCH TABLE BEING ABLE TO
HEAR CLEARLY THAT IT WAS THE
PRESIDENT’S VOICE ON A PHONE
CALL EVEN WHEN IT WASN’T ON
SPEAKERPHONE
SPEAKERPHONE SPEAKERPHONE.
SPEAKERPHONE. THAT’S JUST CORROBORATING
INFORMATION WHICH I THOUGHT WAS
INTERESTING.
INTERESTING. BUT THAT’S ALSO IN THE CONTEXT
OF HIM SAYING, LISTEN, I KNOW
THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS IN
CONSTANT CONTACT WITH RUDY
GIULIANI ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND
MR. GIULIANI WAS IN CONSTANT
CONTACT WITH THE PRESIDENT ABOUT
THIS.
THIS. HE SAID THAT HE MET THE
PRESIDENT A NUMBER OF TIMES.
HE WAS AWARE OF THE SORT OF LOOP
OF INFORMATION HERE, AND PART OF
WHAT HE’S ABLE TO DESCRIBE AS A
WITNESS IS MR. GIULIANI AND
PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKING ABOUT
THE UKRAINE SCHEME IN DETAIL ON
MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, INCLUDING
WHEN MR. PARNAS COULD CLEARLY
OVERHEAR THE PRESIDENT’S
DISTINCTIVE VOICE ON THE PHONE.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST
DAMNING THING OR THE MOST
DIFFICULT INFORMATION FOR DONALD
TRUMP TONIGHT?
TRUMP TONIGHT? IS IT THE INVOLVEMENT AS WE
HEARD IN THE UNFOLDING OF THIS
OF HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM
BARR?
BARR? IS IT THE INVOLVEMENT AS WE
HEARD FROM LEV PARNAS OF VICE
PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE?
IS IT LEV PARNAS SIMPLY SAYING
DONALD TRUMP WASN’T TELLING THE
TRUTH.
TRUTH. DONALD TRUMP WAS LYING WHEN HE
SAID HE DOESN’T KNOW ME.
>> I MEAN, I THINK IT IS STARK
AND DIFFICULT FOR THE WHITE
HOUSE TO HAVE MR. PARNAS WHO WAS
SO PLAINLY INVOLVED IN EVERY
ASPECT OF THIS BLUNTLY AND
DIRECTLY AND WITHOUT
EQUIVOCATION SAY THE PRESIDENT
WAS DIRECTING THIS.
THE PRESIDENT WAS INVOLVED IN
EVERY STEP OF THIS.
THE PRESIDENT KNEW EVERYTHING
THAT WE WERE DOING, AND WE WERE
DOING IT ON HIS BEHALF, AND WE
DID NOTHING WITHOUT HISS EXPRESS
APPROVAL.
APPROVAL. THAT IS -- THAT’S SORT OF
CHAPTER AND VERSE OF THE SCANDAL
IN TERMS OF PRESIDENTIAL
CULPABILITY.
CULPABILITY. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT FOR ME THE
HEADLINE OUT OF THIS INTERVIEW
IS VERY SERIOUS QUESTIONS BEING
RAISED ABOUT VICE PRESIDENT MIKE
PENCE.
PENCE. SO MR. PARNAS IS SAYING THAT
WE -- THAT THERE’S TWO
INTERACTIONS BETWEEN VICE
PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE AND THE
UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT THAT ARE
VERY IMPORTANT HERE AND THAT
MIKE PENCE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN
VERY MUCH IN THE LOOP FOR, AND
ONE OF THE THEM WAS THE
CANCELLATION OF HIS PLANNED TRIP
TO GO TO THE ZELENSKY
INAUGURATION.
INAUGURATION. HE TELLS A VERY VIVID STORY ON A
VERY TIGHT, VERY SPECIFIC TIME
LINE WITH LOTS OF VERY SPECIFIC
LOGISTICAL DETAILS ABOUT HOW HE,
LEV PARNAS, WAS IN UKRAINE
MAKING A ONE LAST CHANCE DEMAND
OF THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT,
ANNOUNCED THOSE INVESTIGATIONS
OR PENCE ISN’T COMING TO YOUR
INAUGURATION.
INAUGURATION. HE DOES THAT ON THE 12th, AND ON
THE 13th, IN FACT, PENCE CANCELS
HIS TRIP TO THE INAUGURATION.
THAT’S THIS VERY IMPORTANT
MOMENT TO MR. PARNAS BECAUSE
IT’S VERY LEGITIMIZING FOR HIM
AS HE CONTINUES TO DO THIS WORK
THAT THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT
KNOWS HE’S GOT THE JUICE, KNOWS
THAT HE CAN ACTUALLY DELIVER IN
TERMS OF THE VICE PRESIDENT’S
WHEREABOUTS.
WHEREABOUTS. NOW, MR. PARNAS IS SAYING THAT
IT’S INCONCEIVABLE THAT VICE
PRESIDENTS PENCE DIDN’T KNOW
THAT TRIP TO HIS INAUGURATION
WAS CONTINGENT ON THOSE
INVESTIGATIONS BEING AGREED TO
OR ANNOUNCED BEFORE HE WENT.
IN ADDITION, HE SAYS MIKE PENCE
WAS ABSOLUTELY THE PERSON FROM
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHO WAS
SUPPOSED TO GO OVER TO POLAND TO
MEET ZELENSKY ON SEPTEMBER 1st
AND GET THOSE INVESTIGATIONS
ANNOUNCED.
ANNOUNCED. AND HE KNEW IT, AND THAT WAS HIS
JOB, AND THAT’S WHY THE DEFENSE
DEPARTMENT AND THOSE E-MAILS
THAT WE’VE SEEN WAS ABLE TO SAY
WE EXPECT THIS ISSUE, THIS
STANDOFF WITH UKRAINE WILL BE
RESOLVED ONCE VICE PRESIDENT
PENCE IS OVER THERE.
THAT REALLY PUTS THE SPOTLIGHT
ON VICE PRESIDENT PENCE.
IT ALSO VERY MUCH BEGS FOR JOHN
BOLTON’S TESTIMONY BECAUSE JOHN
BOLTON COULD TESTIFY TO THAT
BOTH IN TERMS OF THE FACTUAL
ACCURACY OF WHAT MR. PARNAS IS
SAYING AND TO THE VICE
PRESIDENT’S CULPABILITY IN THIS
SCANDAL, AND IF THE PRESIDENT
AND THE VICE PRESIDENT ARE BOTH
CULPABLE IN THIS SCANDAL, IF
THEY WERE BOTH CARRYING OUT THIS
SCHEME PERSONALLY, THAT MAKES
IMPEACHMENT A DIFFERENT THING
THAN IT WAS BEFORE.
>> IT CERTAINLY DOES, AND
THERE’S THAT MOMENT IN THAT
DRAMATIC REVEALING OF IT THE WAY
LEV PARNAS DOES OF WHEN THE
UKRAINIANS DID NOT DO -- IN
FACT, THE GUY WHO WAS
COMMUNICATEING DELETED HIM,
DELETED HIM ON THE PHONE, HE
REPORTS THAT TO RUDY GIULIANI,
RUDY GIULIANI’S LINE IS, OKAY,
THEY’LL SEE.
THEY’LL SEE. >> AND IN FACT THEY DO.
>> AND THE NEXT DAY THEY SEE.
MIKE PENCE ISN’T COMING.
RACHEL, I COULD GO ON AND ON
WITH YOU.
WITH YOU. I COULD KEEP YOU FOR THE HOUR,
BUT I MUST NOT.