New developments in the special counsel's
criminal investigation
into Donald Trump's
handling of classified documents.
Josh Dawsey of The Washington Post
helped break the story.
He's joining us now.
Josh, tell us what you and
your colleagues are now learning.
Right, Wolf.
So what we're learning
is that one day before
federal authorities came tomorrow
I go last June to pick up
classified documents
and returned to a first subpoena.
That video camera footage shows
two Trump employees,
two employees of the former
president, Mar a Lago
Porter convoys
moving boxes back into his storage room.
As you remember,
when the fourth
when the feds arrived at Mar a Lago.
Trump's team
said, come with us to the storage room.
That's what the documents are.
You can do a search.
They would not let them in the boxes
but what we've reported
is that the boxes were previously moved
after forcibly not arrived.
And then the night before,
federal officials
came to Mar a Lago,
they were put back into the storage room.
We're also reporting that
federal investigators
probing the classified document
the handling of former President Trump
have multiple witnesses who told them
he displayed
classified information
to visitors
and left it out and showed it to others.
And we're also reporting that before
this time where they do
not give the documents back,
they went through
what was called
an apparent dress rehearsal,
according to a federal judge,
when the National Archives
asked for the documents back before.
So are of the same playbook on
how not to get the documents back.
Was what they did
with the National Archives as well.
So, Josh,
how could this inform possible
criminal charges?
Well, Wolf, what we're
reporting is
that the investigation
is in its final stages,
at least right
now, that the grand jury meeting
to understand what happened
and whether to just to see
getting indictments
has not met and several weeks.
Most key witnesses have been interviewed.
And what we see now
is that a lot of the investigation
is not about
the former president
taking the documents originally,
but is about efforts to get them back,
how those efforts
were potentially obstructed,
why the former president
did not want to give the documents back,
and whether or not at Mar a Lago,
the documents were mishandled.
If you remember correctly,
the former president,
whose team had previously said,
you know, these were just boxes in a storage room.
But what we're learning
now is that it was a lot more than that.
And there was a comprehensive effort
behind the scenes
to keep a lot of these documents.
And some of these documents
were not just in a storage room.
They were being showed to visitors
at the Florida resort
at home of the former president.
You know, that's a very, very serious
development indeed.
Josh, I want you to stay with us.
I also want to bring in
our legal analysts to discuss.
And Laura Coates, I'll start with you.
How do prosecutors view
the timing of all of this
moving boxes of documents
the day before the FBI came to Mar a Lago
to retrieve these top secret
classified documents
with an eye towards prosecution.
One of the most complicated things
you have to do as a prosecutor
is try to get into
the mind of the person
who might be the target
of your investigation. To prove intent.
You have to really do so
with circumstantial evidence,
with contextual clues and beyond.
But if you actually have some evidence
direct evidence
that the person was aware
that you wanted something
that you were entitled to have
and went through specific steps
to actually prevent you from having that.
That's definitely channel obstruction.
And so
it gets to the meat
of the matter of intent.
The idea of doing a practice run
also buttresses the prosecutorial eye
in this case.
And remember,
the attorney for Donald
Trump
had already had his attorney
client privilege pierced
because they thought it was
entitled to do so under the crime fraud
exception that he may have been directed
to somehow lie
to the people who wanted the document.
Do they had the right to have
and also to direct others to do the same.
And so
this is really forming
a substantive case of intent
you otherwise would not be able to get
if you had to hypothesize or opine
what possibly this person was thinking.
And Norm Eisen,
on this so-called dress rehearsal
where Trump
allegedly reviewed the contents
of some of these boxes.
How much does that speak
to intent Intent, which is very important
in your view?
Well, Wolf,
in addition to
the words of Donald Trump
himself, to illuminate his intent,
you look to actions
and to have a dress rehearsal
that prosecutors may
well characterize
as a dress
rehearsal, for obstruction
is just such damning evidence.
And to be able to present
that to the jury,
it brings that case to life.
Donald Trump was already
in a tremendous amount of trouble
before these latest revelations,
but they have deepened
that peril even more.
And Paula Reid
what will the special counsel
and the Justice Department,
for that matter,
need to weigh here,
considering whether to bring
obstruction charges, for example?
There are a lot of questions here, right?
We know the day before the
this Justice Department visit
that one of his attorneys, Evan Corcoran,
you folks have already referenced here,
he was searching for classified documents
and they need to know, okay,
why were these moving?
Were these moving?
Because they needed to get out of the way
during the search.
Was this a normal part
of looking for classified documents
or was this intentional?
If it was intentional?
Well,
who directed these boxes to be moved?
Why were they directed to be moved?
Where did they go?
A lot of questions again
about intent here.
Why these boxes were moving in and out
if it wasn't just a normal course
of trying to search
through this storage room.
But even if prosecutors
come to the decision
that they do want to pursue
potential charges of obstruction,
what we've seen with
this Justice Department
is the attorney general.
Again, he doesn't make the first decision here,
Jack Smith will.
But this attorney general
has not shown an interest
in pursuing cases
that are just about
obstruction of justice
without another underlying crime.
So even if they find evidence
of obstruction,
the next question is
whether they find evidence
of any other potential underlying crimes,
because that's the way
so far we've seen in other high
profile investigations
that this Justice Department
has preferred to advance Interesting.
And Josh,
I want you and our viewers
to listen and watch
what former
President Trump told our Kaitlan Collins
at CNN's recent town hall
When it comes
to your documents,
did you ever show those
classified documents to anyone?
Not really.
I would have the right to.
By the way, they were demystified after.
Not that I can think of.
I'm sorry.
Let me get your thoughts on that.
That doesn't seem to line up.
Or does it
line up with what
your reporting seems to line
I didn't hear. I know there did.
You know, that sounded not really
and not that I recall,
but I would have the right to do that.
I mean, that was a very interesting answer.
And what federal prosecutors
have learned from other witnesses
is that he did show
classified documents
and that he did
keep some out in his office.
So his answer on there was noncommittal.
And I think there might be a reason
for that.
So, Laura,
what does that say
about where the special counsel
Jack Smith's
criminal investigation stands?
Well, they were
likely salivating
through that answer, as we discussed
that very night,
the idea that somebody would be giving
a jigsaw piece
puzzle a puzzle piece
right to the hands of the special counsel
on potentially an area,
they were not clear about what
they are likely to be
crystal clear on
is the Presidential Records Act
and who the documents belong to
and what the requirement
is to declassify documents.
It's not just the waiving of a wand.
As he went on to talk about
and the idea of
he can be classified
with a snap of a finger.
And of course, I'm paraphrasing,
but it also is about the substance
of the information.
I remind the viewers,
we still do not sitting here
know the full breadth and scope
or the underlying content
of all the documents.
We're talking
about thousands, though,
that contrast
with what they originally handed over,
what the attorney said, that
they had finished the handing over
and what ultimately they recovered
from a duly executed
search warrant of the Mar a Lago estate.
And so
you've got some unanswered parts here,
but you have the connective tissue
once again
of somebody
directly stating what they did.
So, Norm,
what do you expect in the coming weeks
and months, for that matter?
Well, it does seem
by every external indication that the Mar
a Lago
documents case is coming to closure.
The evidence is powerful.
It is not just the obstruction evidence.
Part of the reason that this
indication that Trump was showing
these documents to others,
leaving them in plain sight,
it gives you companion charges.
Unlawful disclosure
of classified
information
is a violation
of the Espionage Act, for example.
So I expect that One-Two Punch and,
you know,
predictions are always risky
in the law, Wolf.
But there is a great likelihood
of charges for Donald Trump.
Yeah, there certainly is.
All right, guys, thank you
very, very much.