So there's something that we need to think about around how do we in this period
fast track leadership development. But on the other side, I think there's an opportunity for
us here around, do we really know what good leadership looks like in the context within
which we find ourselves? Because I think the one thing we don't need is another leadership model.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to HR Hot Topics, the show in which we talk about
some of the stories that we've read in the news and give some analysis on how they touch on the
future of work and how they affect us as HR professionals. With me is Dieter Veldsman.
I'm Erik van Vulpen and these are just some of the discussions that we're having
in the AIHR community. So if you want to learn more, check us out at aihr.com.
Dieter, I believe you have the first story for us.
Thanks so much, Erik. I think a story that really caught my eye over the past couple of weeks is a
story that was published in Fast Company. They talk about the next great resignation
challenge, which is managing the prematurely promoted. And Erik really what the story refers to
is this concept that with the great resignation, we are currently finding a lot of people having
been promoted into managerial or leadership roles. It's the first time that they move into these
roles. And there's almost this void that we need to deal with at the moment around the leadership
capabilities that these individuals have and how they are going to be able to translate that back
into an ever-increasing world of work. And then on the other side,
also the opportunity to really shape and form what we believe is important from a leadership
point of view. My question to you, based on the story, is do you think we are ready for this
challenge as HR to bring these new leaders up to speed with what is required of them?
I think this is a very, very important question. Because with all these newly promoted, how do we
make sure that they have the time to develop themselves into a managerial role? Because I
think there's a couple of elements that are important for young managers. First of all,
we need to acknowledge that it will take two to three years before you are an experienced
manager. And during that time, you also need to have ample time to develop yourself, to reflect,
to get coached, to get leadership training. And you need to have the resources to develop
yourself. And I think what we often see is that people, they get promoted, they're specialists,
they get promoted, they do great work, we want them to continue that great work, and now also
manage a team. And I think that is really about setting us up for disaster. And I think
that to me is the most important thing. Dieter, what do you think?
I think, Erik, in this story, there are two things that I think we need to think about a little bit
deeper. The first one is you mentioned, you know, it takes a leader two to three years to get up to
speed and everything in all the organizations that I'm engaging with at the moment, they talk about
the fact that whether they’re remote or hybrid or back to the office, whether the strategy is
going to be successful largely rests upon the shoulders of leaders to make it work and engage
with people and lead in a different way. And what I'm worried about is this two to three-year void
that we are going to see to get leadership up to speed to be able to take the organization
forward. And I think that can be very, very damaging to employee engagement as well as to
our culture. So there's something that we need to think about around how do we in this period
fast track leadership development. But on the other side, I think there's an opportunity for
us here around, do we really know what good leadership looks like in the context within
which we find ourselves? Because I think the one thing we don't need is another leadership model.
That is, I think, spot on, I think there are two elements to it. First of all, are we offering
the right leadership training? Because I think there's a lot of leadership training out there
and the industry is enormous. And I think there's also a lot of leadership theory out there that,
you know, may build confidence for leaders, but is it also building competence? And I think that
is the first big question that I would ask. Are you investing in a program that will really build
competence in your leader and not necessarily confidence? I think the second element is do
we really understand the skills that we need in a digital era? When we're talking about the hybrid
work that you mentioned, do we understand the key skills that our leaders need in order to be
effective in a hybrid world of work? And have we identified that as HR professionals for our
leaders and have we also made a decision on how we will work towards the future? Because I think
that is the first step. As an organization, we need to understand what work in the future
looks like before we can start to identify those skills that are important for our future leaders.
And I think for a lot of organizations, they're still stuck in that limbo of,
you know, are we doing hybrid work? Are we not doing hybrid work? And that is something that
you need to make a decision on before you can proceed to define the characteristics that are
important for your future leaders, especially when it comes to managing remote and digital teams.
I think Erik, there's a point that you make around us having two conversations as organizations,
the first one is what is important for us in our context, from a leadership point of view,
because I think that conversation is not held enough around executive tables, and I think it is
something that HR should be facilitating, because I think given the changing work circumstance, what
you want from leaders are going to be different, right? In some organizations, they might want a
much more empathetic, caring leadership style at the moment. In other organizations, it might
have to be a bit more directive. The important thing for me is that as organizations and as HR,
we need to ask the question around what our stance and philosophy pertaining to what good leadership
looks like, because I think that will inform the skill sets that we require. And I think that will
be much easier then to have a more targeted and focused approach that hopefully can bring
us results much sooner. Your second point is actually an organizational design challenge,
because the challenge here is if this is the work, and this is what the work looks like, I think
a mistake that we've often made in the past, and we've spoken about, you know, specialists becoming
leaders and then having to lead other specialists. And maybe that's not necessarily their forte,
or their strength, I think the question that we now need to get to is that, in my view, at least
being a leader, being a manager is becoming the job as opposed to something else that
you do on top of the job, and how do we deal with that, from a work design point of view?
I think that's a good question. And that is critically important. And I think that goes
back to my earlier point, like, as a manager, as a leader, you need to have time to actually lead
your team. And I think some will do great and will succeed. What I liked about what you said, Dieter,
is you also mentioned, you know, we need to define what good looks like. And I think there's also
the opposite of it, you know, sometimes we'll promote people into leadership positions that,
you know, may not be the best managers. And I think we also need to understand how do
we deal with bad leaders? And I think we need to start acknowledging that it is okay to you know,
if leadership doesn't work out for you, it's also okay, you know, to go back to a more specialist
position because we need high-quality specialists as well. And I think as HR, we also need to be
ready for that, like, if we have brought people to a leadership position that is not working out,
how do we deal with that? Probably the worst thing is to have a bad leader in a team that
will affect the team and that will just create a culture, an environment that is not productive.
So that's my final thought on this topic. Dieter, I'm curious to know, if you have any final ideas?
I think, Erik, I agree with you that we need to break down the stigma that
to get ahead in your career is to become a leader or a manager. I think there are very alternative
career paths for you to explore based on the one side the need of organizations, but on the other
side, also your preferences and your strengths, and the things that you do really, really well.
I think if you are inclined to lead, I think it's a privilege that you have in the organization,
but it also comes with a certain responsibility. So we need to rethink that stigma around the fact
that everybody has to develop into a leader with big teams that they need to manage. And that is
what success looks like. Because I think that's definitely going to be different. My last thought
on the story is around consequence management that you've mentioned around bad leadership.
Because I think in the new or emerging world of work, regardless of which working model your
organization adopts, whether that's remote or hybrid, or back to the office full time,
there has to be this notion of us holding people accountable, including leaders for what they do
well, as well as where they don't necessarily do what we want him to because there has to be
a sense of consequence if things do not work out. And we have to be seen taking action with regards
to that as well. And I think that's, you know, really going to be important. There's a study
that came out, which I found quite interesting with some of the leaders calling employees back
to the office. And then they asked the question to say, of the 60 or 70% of people that did not pitch
up at the office, what did your leadership team do? And the majority of respondents in this study
actually mentioned that they just did nothing. And that's not the way I believe that we will
take this forward. So I think accountability, we need to manage those boundaries. But ultimately,
what does good look like, which I think brings us to our next story, Erik.
That brings us to the good work framework, which is titled “A new business agenda for
the future of work” created by the World Economic Forum and Mercer, a consultancy.
And in that report, they give five recommendations for employers and HR on how to deal with the new
world of work. And I want to zoom in on one of these principles. I, by the way,
highly recommend you to read the entire report. But one of the things they talk about is
well-being. How do we move from well-being towards total well-being? Now total well-being includes
mental well-being but also physical well-being and societal well-being and also financial
well-being. And these are my question is what is the strength of moving
towards total well-being? Do you think this is something that HR should invest in? I love the
I love the movement around us looking at well-being from a more holistic point of
view. So if we take a step back, I think a challenge that we've always faced is that
the different aspects of total well-being or human well-being were dealt with in different
parts of the organization. So for example, if an employee was struggling financially,
maybe the payroll team or the finance team would have picked it up via the orders that
they would look at every single month, and an employee might be struggling emotionally or from
a mental wellbeing point of view and that would have been dealt with from an employee assistance
program perspective. But these things are all related because we dealing with one human being
and I think the movement around us having a more human-centric approach then really calls to us
in terms of saying let's look at the whole human being in all its different aspects and how do we
treat these different elements? Something I'm very passionate about is financial well-being
because I think organizations don't talk enough about it. And there's a lot of research that shows
us that that actually will influence other factors such as mental well-being as well.
What do you think we need to do differently as HR to shift towards a more total well-being approach?
I think there are a couple of things and the report is talking about health and well-being
officers and then maybe that role that you know brings those different components of well
being together because it is like you said, you know, if someone is living paycheck to paycheck,
that does something with their mental well-being as well. So there is definitely
a correlation between these factors. I think a great example is someone I spoke with a while ago,
who was working at a banking organization with 20,000 employees, and they noticed that a lot of
people were living paycheck to paycheck. And what they did is they tried to build
financial acumen I think in a banking organization is also a very appropriate thing to have and to
do. And they were able to move people who were living from paycheck to paycheck to a more
financially stable situation and just imagine what that does to your mental well-being, you know,
having to work because otherwise you can't make your next your next payments, or you're working,
you know, not because you have to, but you have some room, you have some freedom to
do other things. And I think that is really about shifting that mindset in work just by building a
little bit of financial well-being. So I think from that perspective, it makes a lot of sense.
You know, I think a couple of things that if we look at the concept holistically that we can get
right in the organization and the first one is the age-old stigmatization around well-being, right? I
think there are still a lot of organizations where especially mental well-being is seen as something
we don't talk about, something that is not spoken about in the corridors and, you know, Employee
Assistance programs, and I say this extremely respectfully, are not utilized. And some of the
latest research tells us, you know, less than 10% of employees actually utilize these programs for
fear of victimization or not necessarily being aware of how to do that and don't want to ask,
they want to remain anonymous. So I think total well-being definitely there's this opportunity to
break down some of the stigmas but I think it also provides us as HR with a lot more levers to be
able to really look at holistic well-being from an employee perspective and to do different things.
You know, it's way less threatening to go on, you know, financial acumen program pertaining to how
do you do budgeting in your own personal life? How do you view your employee benefits, as opposed to
having to run a seminar on emotional well-being? And I think it opens up this opportunity for us to
do something different in the space that I believe personally has been caught for a number of years
that predates COVID. And all the challenges that we face, I hope HR is up for that challenge,
what do you think we need to do differently in order to be able to embrace this movement?
I think there is a lot to be said for having someone
being held responsible for it. And whether that's health and well-being officer or
that is the line manager. That's actually a question I want to ask you, Dieter, because
isn't this essentially the responsibility of the line manager? And aren't we delegating
something to HR that should maybe live with the line manager as well?
I think you do have a point there. I think it's a dual responsibility. And let me clarify that I
think on the one end, as an organization, we need to put certain structures in place in order for
total well-being to really be something that is loved as part of our approach towards managing
people. So as part of our people philosophy, I think there are structural things that we need
to do in terms of where these functions sit, and then ultimately, the relationship between
the employee and the employer is managed by the direct line manager. So I believe there is
a responsibility that we also have to educate managers on how do you help your employees through
the wellbeing challenges because that's very often where you know either gets your earlier point gets
delegated to HR, or it's not dealt with in the appropriate manner. The last point I want to make,
and I want to throw that back to you, is I think there's also personal accountability from an
employee perspective around looking after their own well-being because it can't just sit with the
line manager or with HR or with the organization. And it's something that I think we still find,
but that during COVID, what happened to a lot of people was the sense of learned helplessness,
I couldn't control my destiny, nothing I did was going to be able to come to pass. So I
just waited for other people to sort out or give me direction. Well-being doesn't work that way.
Well-being starts with you also being able to say, I'm willing to take that first step.
So how do you think we make sure that there's still this individual
ownership of my own well-being within the structures that we create for that to happen?
I think that there's very much in how we orient these workshops or these programs to watch the
employee. I think it's one thing of being very paternalistic, and telling people what to do.
It's a very different way of treating people as adults and giving them the options, giving them
the choices. And I think we should trust employees to make the right choices for themselves. I think
it is very valuable to offer them help. You know, if there's learned helplessness,
you know, we should offer them help in order to get out of that state of mind, and then
empower employees to make the right choices, to make the choices that make the most sense
for them. If you talk, for example, about pension schemes, you know, how much of your money do you
allocate towards a pension scheme? In general, you want to build a pension scheme because that is,
you know, a good thing for the future. At the same time, if you really desperately need money now,
because you need to pay off student loans or you have other obligations, maybe it is wiser
for you to switch it at this point, even though long term, it would be wise to build, you know,
a pension. So I think those kinds of choices are always complex, we should be careful not to
try to make the decision for the employee. I think we should give the employee all the
information and then the employees should be able to make that decision themselves.
I agree with that. I think it points towards the whole We'll train at the moment around,
you know, flexibility and freedom of choice and around personalization,
especially from an HR point of view around, you know, what does my employee experience look like?
And a lot of these factors will play into that specifically as well. Erik, there was something
interesting in the report for me that we don't often talk about in the organization, and that
is around social well-being, which I think is really a great avenue for us to explore as HR in
partnership with other people in the organization, like social responsibility, but what the report
there refers to is around the fact that we have to also help employees to find a sense of community
and to build a relationship because I think a lot of the literature also tells us around well-being
that that is crucially important to both things like resilience, to be able to face challenges
head-on, to feel part of a trusted network or a community. You and I often talk about HR for good,
the societal impact of HR, do you think this is the next frontier of well-being around what is our
impact? And how do we help employees through things like volunteer programs,
to also create some good in the world which in turn will contribute towards their own well-being?
I think it is definitely a nice-to-have. And I'll disagree a little bit with you
that these are I think there are nice to haves, I don't think there must have,
you know, when we talk about well-being, I think there are a number of must haves,
and there are a number of nice to haves. At the same time, I think when you talk about
volunteering, we do see that volunteering has a positive impact on the individual and on the
organization as well. So there are multiple angles to invest in things like volunteering
that will have benefits for employees and for the organization. So in that sense,
I think it's definitely a nice to have as it is something that you can look into managing
something that will have a positive impact on the organization and on the individual as well.
I think definitely something to explore, right. I think what I do hope will happen in the future
is just this movement away from that we do it only for reputational purposes, right? I think,
again, respectfully, a lot of organizations get involved in some of these programs,
because it looks great in the media, it looks good on paper, you know,
it's fantastic. And I've been in that position, you know, as an HR director, to write that into
your integrated report. But I think there is an individual meaning component that we also need
to take into consideration around what does that actually do for the employee that is involved,
that sees the communities where the organization is involved in and you know, ultimately, how do
we create some good in the world? I think it's a positive thing for us to move in that direction.
That's it for today's episode of HR Hot Topics. Now, before you go, make sure to hit the like
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