EVEN THOSE WHO WORK IN THE
WEST WING.
>> Martha: LELAND, THANK YOU
VERY MUCH.
JOINING US RIGHT NOW, FORMER
WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY
JASON CHAFFETZ, FORMER HOUSE
OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN AND
JESSICA TARLOV, DIRECTOR OF
RESEARCH AT Muscle.com.
YOU HAVE WORKED IN THE
WEST WING, WHAT DO YOU READ HER
HERE?
>> LET ME MAKE A FEW POINTS,
NUMBER ONE, MOST AMERICANS DON'T
KNOW THE NAMES OF ANYBODY WHO
WORKS AT THE WHITE HOUSE WITH
THE PRESIDENT AND
VICE PRESIDENT, AND THEY DON'T
CARE.
THEY JUST CARE ABOUT THE
DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE.
A SECOND, THIS IS ONE CHAOTIC
WHITE HOUSE.
I HAVE NEVER COME IN MY LIFE, IS
MUCH AS I'VE GOTTEN USED TO THE
CHAOS OF THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE,
SEEING A FIRST LADY HAVE TO GO
PUBLIC AND ISSUE A STATEMENT --
I'M JUST STUNNED THAT THIS
WASN'T HANDLED PRIVATELY.
AT THAT IT REACHED THE BOILING
POINT WHERE SHE FELT THE NEED --
PUBLICLY --
>> Martha: FAR FROM THE FIRST
FIRST LADY, ARI, HILARY HAD THE
TRAVEL TEAM, AND THERE ARE OTHER
EXAMPLES.
>> BUT SHE JUST DID IT.
IT WAS NOT, SHE PUT OUT A PRESS
STATEMENT URGING FOR IT TO BE
DONE.
AND THAT BACKFIRED ON HILLARY.
MY POINT IS HERE, THE
FIRST LADIES HAVE TREMENDOUS
POWER, THEY HAVE THE POWER OF
TALKING TO THE PRESIDENT, AND
THE PRESIDENT MAKES THAT POWER
FELT.
I DON'T KNOW WHY SHE HAD TO GO
PUBLIC IN THIS INSTANCE, SHE
WENT TO THE PRESIDENT, HE DIDN'T
DO IT, AND SHE STILL HAD TO GO
PUBLIC.
THAT IS CHAOTIC.
>> Martha: JASON?
>> I'M WITH THE FIRST LADY ON
THIS ONE.
IT IS RARE TO NONTHAT THE
FIRST LADY SAYS MUCH OF
ANYTHING, AND IT MUST HAVE BEEN
AWFULLY BAD.
I THINK IT IS ALSO VERY TELLING
THAT THIS COMES ROUGHLY A MONTH
AFTER SHE TOOK THIS TRIP TO
AFRICA, AND IT MAY BE MORE ABOUT
THE AFTERMATH.
THEY MAY BE SQUABBLING ABOUT A
SEAT ON AN AIRPLANE, WAS ONE OF
THE REPORTS, BUT HOW THAT WENT
DOWN AND WHAT DID AND DID NOT
HAPPEN, IF SOMEBODY WASN'T
TRUTHFUL OR IF SOMEBODY WAS MAY
BE EXAGGERATING WHAT HAPPENED OR
CHANGING THEIR STORY, VERY
QUICKLY, AND A SMALL OFFICE LIKE
THE WEST WING, YOU START TO
UNDERSTAND THAT MAYBE THAT GETS
UNDER THE SKIN OF SOMEBODY.
I THINK MELANIA TRUMP, I THINK
SHE HAS EARNED OF THE OF SO MANY
OF US BECAUSE IF SHE DOESN'T
SPEAK SO INFREQUENTLY, TO MAKE
THIS HARD STANCE AND MAKE SUCH A
STATEMENT, IT IS VERY COMPELLIN
COMPELLING, AND I THINK IT IS
PROBABLY BEST THAT THEY SEPARATE
AND GO DIFFERENT WAYS.
>> Martha: SOME OF THESE
REPORTS, JESSICA, SHE MAY HAVE
BEEN SPEAKING FOR OTHER PEOPLE,
AS WELL.
THERE WERE REPORTS THAT THIS
WOMAN, MIRA, WAS A BULLYING
PEOPLE, TALKING DOWN TO THEM,
AND LELAND RIGHTLY POINTED OUT
IN HIS INTRO, SOMETIMES THERE
ARE STORIES THAT GET OUT THERE
BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE WANT OTHER
PEOPLE TO BE FIRED, SO THEY
START SAYING NASTY THINGS ABOUT
THEM.
TIME WILL TELL.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
WE CERTAINLY KNOW ABOUT LEAKING
IN THIS WHITE HOUSE FOR A
CERTAIN PURPOSE, AND IT TO
JASON'S POINT, WE DON'T REALLY
KNOW WHAT HAPPENED ON THE FLIGHT
OR THE TWO WEEK TRIP, BUT THE
FIRST LADY WAS EXTREMELY
DISPLEASED WITH HER INTERACTIONS
WITH THIS WOMAN.
BLOOMBERG IS ALSO REPORTING THIS
EVENING THAT SHE HAD A BAD
REPUTATION FOR BEING INFLEXIBLE
WITHIN THE WEST WING, AND WHEN
YOU THINK ABOUT HOW CHAOTIC AND
FLY BY THE SEAT OF THEIR PARENTS
OF THIS ADMINISTRATION IS,
GEORGE BUSH TYPE OF APPROACH TO
WORKING IN THE WEST WING -- THAT
IS WHERE SHE CAME FROM
ORIGINALLY.
IT MIGHT NOT HAVE FIT IN WITH
THE VIBE OF THIS WHITE HOUSE,
GENERALLY, AND NOT JUST A
PROBLEM THAT MELANIA HAD WITH
HER.
>> Martha: A SOUND BITE FROM
MY INTERVIEW A COUPLE WEEKS AGO
WITH KRISTIN NIELSEN.
WATCH THIS.
>> THEY HAVE A BIG JOB TO DO, HE
AND I WORK VERY CLOSELY
TOGETHER.
>> YOU DON'T SAY JOHN BOLTON --
YOU'RE SAYING WE ARE NOT TOUGH
ENOUGH ON THE BORDER, WE HAVE TO
MAKE A CHANGE IN HOMELAND?
>> I DON'T THINK HE IS, NO.
>> Martha: SO THE BIG QUESTION
FOR AMERICA, AS ARI POINTED OUT,
A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT
THE DECK CHAIRS WHEN THEY MOVE
AROUND ON THE DECK, BUT THEY DO
CARE ABOUT HOMELAND SECURITY AND
THEY DO CARE ABOUT WHO IS
RUNNING THE COUNTRY, JASON.
SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
ADMINISTRATION, YOU LOOK AT THE
CABINET, DO YOU THINK CHANGES
NEED TO BE MADE, OR IS THIS NOT
APPROPRIATE?
>> THE PRESIDENT HAS TAKEN A
VERY TOUGH STRANDS ON
IMMIGRATION.
WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WITHIN
IT THE BOWELS OF THE
ORGANIZATION, THERE IS TALK THAT
MAYBE SECRETARY NELSON HAS NOT
MOVED FAST ENOUGH OR AGGRESSIVE
ENOUGH.
>> Martha: CONGRESS HAS TO
MAKE THESE CHANGES.
SHE IS NOT GOING TO PAY FOR THE
WALL, NOT GOING TO BUILD A WALL
HERSELF.
CONGRESS NEEDS TO MAKE THESE
CHANGES.
I DON'T HOW MUCH MORE SHE COULD
HAVE DONE.
WHAT YOU THINK SHE COULD HAVE
DONE, JASON?
>> I THINK THE SECRETARY HAS TO
GO TO CONGRESS AND HELP MAKE
THAT CASE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS
GOING ON AND NOT GOING ON AT THE
BORDER, AND THE IMPERATIVE.
LOOK, I'M VERY SUPPORTIVE ON THE
OUTSIDE, BUT BEHIND THE SCENES,
THERE IS OBVIOUS THAT SOMETHING
BOTHERING THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE
IT IS NOT MOVING FAST ENOUGH.
>> Martha: WHAT DO YOU THINK,
ARI?
>> I THINK THE PRESIDENT IS
PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO MAKE
WHATEVER CHANGES HE WANTS AS
PART OF A TRADITION OF MIDTERMS,
BUT HERE IS MY ADVICE.
IF YOU MAKE A CHANGE, HAVE THE
REPLACEMENT READY TO GO THE SAME
DAY YOU MAKE THE ANNOUNCEMENT.
BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU CREATE
THESE VACUUMS, AND IN
WASHINGTON, THE VACUUM IS FILLED
BY NOTHING BUT NASTINESS AND
NEGATIVITY.
BUT IF YOU WOULD ANNOUNCED THAT
X IS OUT AND Y IS IN, YOU HAVE A
STRONGER, BETTER DEBATE TO BE
INVOLVED IN.
SO MAKE WHATEVER MOVIE YOU WANT
TO MAKE, BUT THEN HALF OF THOSE
READY TO ROLL THE SAME DAY.
>> Martha: GREAT POINT.
EVERYBODY OBVIOUSLY KNOWS THAT
THEY SERVE AT THE PLEASURE OF
THE PRESIDENT, AND IT IS MY
EXPERIENCE THAT WHEN YOU WATCH
THESE CHANGES HAPPEN, IT IS A
BIG DUSTUP FOR ABOUT 24 HOURS,
AND THEN EVERYBODY GETS USED TO
THE NEW PERSON, THAT PERSON GOES
TO THE MICROPHONE, AND EVERYBODY
EXCEPT THAT THAT PERSON IS THE
NEW ONE THEY ARE HEARING FROM.
AND YET, I HEAR, ALL ACROSS MANY
OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS, EVERY THIRD
DAY, PRETTY MUCH, THAT THERE IS
A COMPLETE MELTDOWN, THAT THE
WHITE HOUSE IS MELTING DOWN, IT
IS PRACTICALLY NONFUNCTIONING,
AND YET SEEMS TO GO ON.
>> IT DOES SEEM TO GO ON.
THAT MIGHT JUST BE MELTDOWN
MODE, AND THEY MIGHT BE REALLY
GOOD AT HANDLING IT PAIRED TO
YOUR QUESTION THAT YOU POST TO
JASON ABOUT WHAT ALL SHE COULD
HAVE DONE, I THINK THE PRESIDENT
HAS NOT ENJOYED SOME OF HER
MEDIA APPEARANCES, LIKE WHETHER
OUR OWN CHRIS WALLACE, WHERE HE
REALLY PRESSURED HER ABOUT THE
CARAVAN, TALKING ABOUT THE WOMEN
IN THE BABIES WHO ARE IN THERE,
AND THE PRESIDENT LANGUAGE THAT
THESE ARE MS-13 MEMBERS, GANG
MEMBERS, DRUG TRAFFICKING,
BRINGING AN INFESTATION,
ET CETERA, SHE ALSO STRUGGLED
DURING THE FAMILY SEPARATION
POLICY, NOT HER FIRST OUTING,
BUT WHEN SHE HAD TO COME OUT
AGAIN AND FACE THE PRESS ON THIS
ISSUE.
HE APPARENTLY REFERS TO HER AS
BUSH-Y, HE HAS PROBLEMS WITH
MEMBERS OF THE GEORGE W. BUSH
ADMINISTRATION.
I THINK THAT HE MIGHT BE LOOKING
AT SOME OF MY CRISCO BATCH, IF
I'M PRONOUNCING OUT PROPERLY,
FROM CAMPUS, WHO DIDN'T WIN
HIS RACE, SOMEBODY WHO IS A
HARD-LINER ON IMMIGRATION AND
SHARES HIS BOOK KNOW MY POINT OF
VIEW ABOUT VOTER FRAUD.
I THINK HE IS LOOKING FOR