Announcer: Welcome back to The David Pakman Show.
David: Welcome back to the show. I've been following with great interest over the years
different studies that either try to link or show that there is no link between cell
phone use and brain cancer. I know, Louis, this is a big topic for you as well. And the
World Health Organization has put out what some believe to be an original study. What
it actually is is kind of an opinion of the variety of studies that have been done over
the last few years about this topic.
Now, on the whole, these previous analyses did not show a link between cell phone use
and possible increased cancer risk. The WHO has decided after this analysis to list mobile
phone use in the same carcinogenic hazard category as lead, engine exhaust, and chloroform.
So this is a significant change on the overall assessment, although, again, it is not original
research. It does not represent a new study into the issue, is my understanding.
Louis: Right.
David: Now, something I want to bring up right away is let's keep in mind the money trail
on this. If we look at the results of studies commissioned by cell phone companies and manufacturers
compared to those commissioned by those... by others, in other words, those who are not
in the wireless industry, should we be surprised, Louis, that the studies that are commissioned
by the cell phone companies much more often showed that there is no risk, that there is
no correlation?
Louis: Of course not.
David: Absolutely no surprise to me. But what this is telling us is that even when you hear
about these studies, you can't just assume that you're actually getting, even though
doctors were involved, even though this was a scientific test, we are seeing a huge discrepancy
between those studies that were asked for or paid for or commissioned by cell phone
companies and those that were not. What do you think?
Louis: I think that's the way it goes with everything.
David: Chairman of Neurology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in L.A. Dr. Keith Black said
the biggest problem we have is that we know most environmental factors take several decades
of exposure before we really see the consequences. So this is obviously the issue. We don't have
that long of an observable period where there is such heavy cell phone usage, not to mention
that the cell phones that were being used at the beginning of the cell phone era actually
were quite different than those today, in many cases put out more radiation, in many
cases were built completely differently. So even if we did go back to, I don't know, 20,
25 years ago when the first cell phones started to be developed and just looked at those people,
if they used them heavily, we're still not going to get great information, because cell
phones now are so different.
Louis: Not too, too different.
David: The type of radiation that comes out of a cell phone is called non-ionizing. It's
not like an X-ray, it's more like a very low-powered microwave oven.
Louis: Right.
David: And the other issue with cell phones is that they emit the most radiation when
they're attempting to connect to cell towers, so if you have a moving phone or if you're
in an area with a weak signal, where the phone is searching for a signal much more actively,
that increases the amount of radiation. So that's another factor.
The study shows a pretty clear correlation between cell phone use and glioma, which is
a type of brain tumor. It does not actually show causation, but we have to say, what other
factors that are common to heavy cell phone users that are not cell phone use itself could
be contributing to brain cancer? I can't think of any. I think Natan has some thoughts on
this.
Natan: But didn't they also find that gliomas, like newly-diagnosed cases are actually down,
despite the fact that there's a connection between the gliomas and cell phone use?
David: I didn't see that as part of this study. That may be true.
Natan: Oh. Because I read that as like something that's also true, so I don't know, if that's
true, if there are other things that are mitigating the effect.
David: That's the question. That's the question. In other words, if we see this correlation
but we don't... we can't say that there is a cause, let's investigate what other factors
they may be.
Also, bear in mind that there is a variability in the distance from the head that you have
your phone. Most manufacturers will tell you that half an inch to one inch from your head
is where you're supposed to hold your phone. And let's be honest, I don't think... I have
my phone here, I'm trying to recreate... when I talk on the phone, yeah, I basically have
the phone completely up against my head. I don't think that I...
Louis: Most people do, especially if you're in a noisy area, you're trying to hear better.
David: I don't think I hold it out...
Natan: You should wear the headphones.
David: I should what?
Natan: If you wear the headphones when you talk on your phone, that's probably a good
distance.
David: I don't even have headphones. I do... in my car, I have Bluetooth... I mean, I'm
wearing headphones now, but I'm saying I don't have like a Bluetooth thing. In my car, I
have the Bluetooth thing, so I can just leave the phone on my center console.
Louis: Yeah, you're still getting bombarded by waves when you're using Bluetooth.
David: You know, the other thing to think about is, number one, text messages don't
seem to have this negative effect, at least not on your head, but the obvious question
there is if you have a phone in your pocket 24 hours a day, the way that I do, is that
affecting any other possible reproductive issues? Some things I've read say yes.
Natan: I think there's...
David: And we don't have... what's that?
Natan: I think there's firm evidence that it causes infertility.
David: Is... that's what I've read.
Natan: No, no, no, that's... or, I don't know if that's actually true.
David: No, I've heard-- I've read some studies that very anecdotally they... people did sperm
count tests, and within weeks of moving their phone to an armband, they actually had significantly
higher sperm count.
Louis: Yeah, I mean, the studies that should be going on are what are the effects of microwave
radiation on people? And it's coming from all sorts of places, it's not just cell phones.
Is it crazy to think that when you're cooking any part of your body with microwave radiation
that it might cause cancer? I mean, I think that's pretty obvious. I think it can.
David: What would it take? What kind of a study would it take for you to not use a cell
phone anymore? In other words, if a study came out, imagine, and it said you know what,
anybody using a cell phone is... is...
Louis: Is at risk?
David: Is going to have cancer within the next two years. I mean, just imagine that.
Would that get you to just stop using your phone altogether? Are you just too addicted
to it? I mean, what would it take?
Louis: If there was indisputable proof that you...
David: Just imagine there were.
Louis: Of course I'd stop. I think everyone would stop using cell phones if that were
the case.
David: Would they?
Louis: Yeah. You're telling me there are people who would just gladly take cancer for the
convenience of cell phone use? Brain cancer?
David: Some people are pretty addicted to cell phones.
Louis: I don't know about that. I agree with you, but I don't think they would take cancer
over cell-- not using cell phones.
David: All right. Well, I don't know. I mean, for me, this is already... I'm already...
I'm going to try to at least keep the phone further from my head.
Louis: I don't usually keep it in my pocket.
David: Right.
Louis: I don't talk on the phone much to begin with. I don't have long conversations. I'm
not worried about it.
David: We know that. We know Louis isn't much of a talker.
Louis: No. I'm not worried about it at all.
David: OK.
Louis: But I think people who keep it in their pocket 24/7, people who are always on it,
not a good thing.
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