JUDY WOODRUFF: The shooting in San Jose that took nine lives is the latest in a spike of
mass shootings.
In fact, the U.S. is averaging more than 10 a week this year, according to the Gun Violence
Archive. The Archive defines a mass shooting as one where four or more people are injured
or killed. It's led many to ask once again about guns and what can be done.
Stephanie Sy looks at the role of the federal government's chief watchdog -- that is the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms -- in a conversation she taped a short time ago.
STEPHANIE SY: Judy, a new investigation by USA Today and The Trace finds that the ATF,
which is in charge of policing the gun industry, is -- quote -- "frequently toothless and conciliatory,
bending over backward to go easy on wayward dealers, and sometimes allowing guns to flow
into the hands of criminals."
A team of reporters looked at more than 2,000 gun inspections between 2015 and 2017. It
found too many cases of dealers breaking the law without significant punishment, and managers
who overrode recommendations to revoke gun licenses.
It also found that dealers were inspected only once every seven years, on average.
Nick Penzenstadler of USA Today is one of the lead investigative reporters, and joins
me now.
Nick, thank you so much for your time.
I read the report. It's comprehensive. And every time there is another mass shooting
in this country, we ask these questions: Where can this cycle be broken?
Your investigation focuses on that point of sale of the gun. What did you find that the
ATF is falling short on there? And what is an example you found?
NICK PENZENSTADLER, USA Today: Right.
We found a two-part problem here. We found gun sellers not following the rules and not
living up to their promise to do the paperwork correctly and to ask for identification and
record all that information about gun buyers correctly. And then we also found the ATF,
who came to inspect those gunshots, not following up on their inspections and revoking licenses
or doing any meaningful punishment to correct this action.
STEPHANIE SY: You specifically found that field investigators are coming up with recommendations
and warnings. In some cases, they are recommending that a license to sell a gun be revoked. And
higher-ups are overruling that.
I guess the question is, why is that happening?
NICK PENZENSTADLER: Well, there is tremendous pressure to not shut down a gun shop, especially
for the paperwork errors.
But we're really focused on these willful violations, when a gun shop is given a second
chance and a third chance, and they still can't seem to get it right. And many times,
a field investigator, like you said, will recommend them for revocation, but then a
higher-up will give them some more leniency and another chance to reform.
And that is really based on this effort to get compliance vs. shutting down a business.
STEPHANIE SY: Are there valid reasons for why they would overrule a recommendation to
revoke a license? Is it because they want to keep businesses open? Or is there something
more nefarious you found?
NICK PENZENSTADLER: We certainly saw many reasons.
I mean, we saw reasons ranging from, this shop just opened, we need to give them a chance
to get their feet under them, to, this shop has been open for decades, let's give them
a break because this is only a few mistakes in hundreds of thousands of sales.
So, we also saw that number based on volume. If a shop sold a ton of guns and they had
a small number of errors, obviously, the ATF would give them more leniency.
But, really, the concern ask is that the ATF is unwilling or unable to shut down shops
because of the political pressure and the legal resources it takes to string those out.
STEPHANIE SY: Because of political pressure.
And gun shop owners seem to understand that. Your report suggests that former ATF officials
believe that this culture of leniency is understood by gun shop owners.
So, are we just talking about owners not filling out paperwork, Nick, or are we talking about
real-world consequences? Did you find a connection between criminality and the lack of oversight
that you report by the ATF?
NICK PENZENSTADLER: Yes, I mean, we found shops that were repeatedly warned that they
were selling to straw buyers, people who are prohibited, and having someone else stand
in for them, and then, months down the line, a gun purchased by a straw buyer is used in
a violent crime.
So, yes, these actions are not just paperwork issues. This is the crux of many criminal
investigations, where police are looking at the records generated from these sales to
identify where guns came from. So, this is a crucial link that the FBI and local police
use to solve crime.
STEPHANIE SY: And, Nick, what is the ATF's explanation for this leniency?
NICK PENZENSTADLER: The word from the ATF is that they really only go after the willful
violators, they are only going to focus on the most serious issues, and they only have
the resources to go after so many.
There is also a federal law that says a gun shop can only be inspected once a year. And,
obviously, they are not even hitting that, averaging about one every seven years.
STEPHANIE SY: President Biden's current pick for heading up the ATF is known to be a staunch
proponent of gun control. Do you see him having the authority to change this culture at the
ATF if he is confirmed?
NICK PENZENSTADLER: Yes.
David Chipman was on the Hill yesterday talking about this exact issue. One of his main points
is that these shop owners should be alerting local authorities when someone comes in and
tries to buy a gun illegally.
If they are prohibited, they fill out the paperwork as committing a felony, it's likely
that they could go on and commit more violent felonies. So, that was an issue that came
up yesterday. And a lot of these problems could be solved with administrative action
that don't require new laws, don't require this big political fight.
It is really about focusing resources and changing how we view this regulatory structure
from leniency and second chances and compliance to more of a crackdown.
STEPHANIE SY: Nick Penzenstadler, journalist with USA Today, thank you.
NICK PENZENSTADLER: You're welcome.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And shortly after Stephanie recorded that interview, officials at the
ATF wrote back with a response.
It plans to hire, it says, 100 more investigators in the next year to increase compliance and
enforcement. When there is willful disregard for regulations, the ATF says it will seek
criminal prosecutions.