President Maia Sandu. Welcome to Conflict Zone.
Thank you for the invitation.
You said recently, We believe we can save our democracy only as part of the EU.
Is your democracy that fragile?
The current geopolitical situation shows to us that Russia will continue to be a
big source of instability for years to come, and Russia has been posing threats
to our democracy. And that's why we believe that our democracy will be safer within
the EU. We value democracy. We've been fighting hard to protect our democratic
institutions and processes and especially to consolidate them. But we see that external
challenges can have significant implications, especially on a small country like Moldova.
You're comforted by the fact that so many European leaders decided to come here?
We honor it and we see this as a strong signal of support.
And you want more than a strong signal of support. You want more than moral support,
don't you? You want actual support.
We have been benefiting from support.
They are not promising you anything though.
We have the candidate status now and this is extremely important to us.
To us this is the light at the end of the tunnel.
We have been benefiting from support now that we have to deal with the energy crisis, with
the economic implications of the war in Ukraine, with the refugee crisis. Yes, we do need support,
but we have a strong determination here inside the country to make the EU integration possible.
And prevent you becoming Putin's next target?
We do need to be part of the EU family to feel safer.
Are you afraid of being his next target?
We do see what Russia is doing to Ukraine, and there are reasons to be concerned, of course.
You've suggested Moldova might become a full member of the EU by 2030, but you could well be
out of power by then. Your party has been polling in the low 20s for some of this year. Isn't
that a worry? Wouldn't that be a huge stumbling block to the EU if you got voted out of office?
We made a commitment to be ready by 2030 for the EU membership and we showed on May 21st,
a few days ago that there is popular support. When the citizens of Moldova came to Chisinau,
came into the street. We have the polling, we have the polls which show that more than 60%
of Moldovans support the EU accession plan. And we will continue to work to make sure that the
Russian propaganda and its disinformation does not reduce the popular support for
the EU integration. But this is an objective which is supported by the majority of people.
You set up a and in fact, you've just announced a few hours ago a new project
to crack down on disinformation or to mollify disinformation in the country.
How effective is that going to be? Disinformation is everywhere, and it's
carried so much faster than real information these days by the World Wide Web, isn't it?
Disinformation, and especially the Russian propaganda, have been very damaging to the
Moldovan democracy. And we have to tackle this issue and we need to be more coherent in our
actions. And we know this is not easy. This is not easy even for countries which have stronger
institutions, and Moldova is still building its institutions. But we will be learning from the
best experiences. At the same time, we are very committed to the freedom of speech,
and Moldova has made significant improvements in the last two years. We
moved up 61 positions in the international ranking on the freedom of press. Today,
Moldova is number 28 in the international ranking on freedom of press. So we will.
And you aim to stay there?
Yes, we want to move up. So because this is very important to us, this is what democracy
is about. So we will have to find ways which on one hand respect the freedom of press,
freedom of expression, but on the other hand, protect our democracy, our processes,
our institutions, our elections from interferences from abroad. And by abroad, I mean Russia.
Talking about protecting your democracy. Earlier this year, you accused the Russians of attempting
a coup d'etat against your government. How close did you come to being toppled?
We are much stronger this year than last year for instance, when the war in Ukraine started. Our
institutions are much stronger and we have proof that our institutions have been able to prevent
Russia from implementing its scenario. It doesn't mean that these attempts will not continue.
But how close did it come, to actually the ousting you.
The institutions were strong enough,
and Russia's plan proved to be not realistic enough because Russia believed that we were
weaker, because that's what Russia wants Moldova to be, wants to be a weak institution, a weak
state with weak institutions. We were close, but our institutions managed to prevent this scenario.
How close? Just hours away?
Well, I'm not sure hours away, but weeks in which Russia was planning
to undertake this attempt of overthrowing the government together with the criminal groups,
together with the corruption groups led by some Moldovans. But again,
thanks to the fact that we knew about these plans and thanks to the fact that our institutions
managed to react quickly and they were vigilant enough, this this was not- this hasn't happened.
Do you feel personally under threat from Russia?
There are you know, there are risks when you
come to a position like being the president of a country. But ...
But are there risks directed at you? From Russia?
I, I do feel safe because I have a team here which protects me.
You have talked about the hybrid warfare. Moscow has apparently distributed large sums of money to
oligarchs in Moldova essentially to cause trouble. You would seem to have very powerful enemies here.
Do you know who they all are? Are we talking about a fifth column against you in this country?
It's a combination. We have politicians and people who have been receiving money from Russia
for years to undermine our efforts to build a strong state here in the Republic of Moldova.
More recently, some of the corrupt groups, which before didn't have a geopolitical color,
now joined Russia in its attempts to destabilize the country because the interest of the corrupt
groups are to keep Moldova in the grey area, to have weak institutions so that they could
continue to steal. And they would not be put in prison. They would not respond for the abuses
that they have committed in the past. So you have a combination of efforts now of
those people who have been working for Russia for many years, who have been paid by Russia
to work against the Moldovan state, and now the corrupt groups, which suddenly realized
that they share the same objective with Russia to make this country weak and to benefit from that.
As well as EU membership you're cooperating extensively with NATO. Neutrality is written
into your constitution, but that isn't going to last very long, is it? Defense Minister
Anatolie Nosatii said in January that you were asking Western partners for air defense system
and that Moldova's neutral status was no longer current. Big change, isn't it?
Well, the provision in the Constitution is there. It hasn't changed. And apparently the popular
support for the neutrality is still there, judging by the opinion polls. But there is a serious
discussion about the fact whether neutrality is going to protect Moldova. And by seeing what is
happening in Ukraine, we have big doubts that Russia would respect our neutrality. In fact,
Russia already does not respect our neutrality because it has troops on our territory.
In Transnistria. ri the breakaway region of Transnistria.
Exactly, in Transnistria region. Exactly, for almost three decades. And this is proof that
it doesn't respect our neutrality. So we are concerned. We are trying to improve our defense
system. We're working with NATO. We're working with NATO member countries, and they are providing
support to us. But there is a discussion in the society and it should. This discussion is very
relevant about whether neutrality is enough for us to feel protected or not. But the change in
the Constitution, if it happens, has to be has to happen with the support of the majority of people.
Do you want it to happen?
I want this country to be protected.
You want it to be part of NATO.
I want this country to feel safe. But this is a democratic country.
Do you want it to happen?
I want this country to feel safe.
When it comes to Transnistria as a reintegration process, I gather,
but it's not making much progress. You want the territory back under your control, don't you?
It's our territory. And it should be reintegrated in the Republic of Moldova.
But it's not going to happen anytime soon, is it?
I wouldn't say so, because
the current situation in Ukraine and the moment Ukraine regains its territories might provide a
geopolitical opportunity for us to solve the conflict. I just want to make it very clear
that we are committed to a peaceful solution of the Transnistrian conflict and we are ready
for such a process. But of course we need a geopolitical opportunity for this to happen.
Peaceful with 1,700 Russian troops there.
They need to be withdrawn.
Do you believe that, you talked about Ukraine a moment ago,
do you believe that Ukraine can win back all the land that Russia has occupied as
it wants to? You look at the war from right next door. What's your perspective here?
Ukraine should be helped. Should get all the support to regain its territories. Otherwise,
we risk to live in a world where countries borders
are not respected anymore. And this is not a world anyone wants to live in.
Does the prospect scare you?
The fact that innocent people are being killed every day in Ukraine,
this is something that scares everybody. So that's why we need to help Ukraine and
we need to make sure that such things don't happen anymore.
You don't believe, do you, that this is a one off adventure for
the Kremlin? You think Russia will remain a threat for years to come?
Yes, that's what I believe.
And that threat will be ...
And that's why ...
... a military threat.
And that's why accountability is very important.
What do you see as President Putin's end game here?
Just to enlarge the Imperium.
Get back the Soviet Union?
Probably Soviet
Union or even more. But it's clear that this is to enlarge their country, which is big enough.
So what kind of basis will there be in future
for Western relations with Russia? What can there be under those circumstances?
The democratic world and the entire world needs to make sure that Russia respects
the territorial integrity of other countries.
You've said that Russia will remain a threat to Moldova, at least while you're a democracy. You
have every intention of remaining a democracy. So that threat is going to continue. This is going
to be a very unsettled part of Europe, isn't it, for the foreseeable future.
Russia will continue to be a big source of instability for years to come. That's why
the continent needs to stay together, and that's why the democratic world needs to work together
and to help all the countries like Moldova, which want their democracy to survive. For us,
the easiest way to consolidate our democracy and to preserve it is is to be part of the EU.
But that still doesn't give us all a way of living with this kind of Russia, this revanchist Russia.
The risk is still going to be there. That's why accountability is very
important and Russia should be punished for what it is doing now in Ukraine.
President Maia Sandu. Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you.