WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO END THIS WAR?
, ARMORED FIGHTING VEHICLES, AND MUCH, MUCH MORE AMMUNITION.
JOHN KIRBY OF THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL INSIST THAT
THE ALLIANCE IS STILL ROCK-SOLID ALL ANDS FOR
UKRAINE'S DEFENSE. >> JOHN KIRBY, WELCOME TO THE
PROGRAM. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
ME. >> THE BIG ISSUE FOR THE DAY IS
THE TANKS, THE TANKS, THE TANKS. SO, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE
UNITED STATES APPEARS NOT TO BE WILLING TO SEND ITS AND ONE
TANKS TO UKRAINE. WHY NOT?
>> WE ARE STILL WORKING OUR WAY THROUGH A MYRIAD OF REQUESTS BY
THE UKRAINIANS FOR CAPABILITIES, CHRISTIANE.
WE RECOGNIZE THE ARMORED CAPABILITY IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT AS A FIGHT IN THE DONBAS AND GET READY TO FIGHT
IN COMING MONTHS OVER THE SPRING.
WE EXPECT THERE'S QUITE BE QUITE A BIT OF GROUND MANEUVER,
WHICH OBVIOUSLY, TANKS WOULD BE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF.
BUT WE MADE NO DECISIONS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
WE CERTAINLY LOOK FORWARD TO AND ARE GRATEFUL FOR THE
CONTRIBUTION THAT OTHER NATIONS ARE WILLING TO GIVE.
THE BRITS HAVE AGREED TO GET SOME TANKS.
I KNOW THE GERMANS ARE TALKING ABOUT AMONGST THEMSELVES.
THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY DECISIONS THEY HAVE TO MAKE.
AND WE HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES AS WELL.
I WOULD TELL, YOU THE ABRAMS TANK IS A VERY SOPHISTICATED
SYSTEM, IT REQUIRES A VERY LENGTHY, DETAILED, COMPLICATED
SUPPLY CHAIN. I'M NOT RULING ANYTHING IN A
ROW. I'M JUST SAYING --
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE AS WE PROVIDE UKRAINE --
CAPABILITY, IT'S A TYPE THEY CAN USE.
AND THEY CAN USE KATE -- IN SHORT ORDER.
>> JOHN KIRBY, A LOT OF PEOPLE, MILITARY EXPERTS, THINK THE
ABRAMS MAY NOT BE ANY GOOD, PRECISELY BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU
SAID. IT'S A GAS GUZZLER, IT'S ALL OF
THAT. DO YOU THINK THAT IS THE CASE?
THAT ACTUALLY IT'S NOT WHAT IS NEEDED ON THE BATTLEFRONT RIGHT
NOW? >> AGAIN, WE'RE STILL WORKING
OUR WAY THROUGH THAT. I THINK --
IF YOU JUST TAKE A STEP BACK FROM JUST THE ABRAMS ITSELF,
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE KIND OF ADVANCE CAPABILITIES WERE
GIVING UKRAINE, WE HAVE TO BE MINDFUL THAT WE ARE NOT GIVING
THEM CAPABILITIES THAT THEY CANNOT ABSORB READILY OR
EFFECTIVELY. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE NOT
SMART, OR CAPABLE. THEY, ARE WE'RE TRAINING THEM
ON MISSILE SYSTEMS RIGHT NOW IN OKLAHOMA.
BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THERE ABSORPTION RATE.
AND THE ABILITY TO USE THIS MATERIAL IN SHORT ORDER, AND
VERY EFFECTIVELY AGAINST THE ENEMY.
THE ABRAMS IS A VERY SOPHISTICATED, CAPABLE TANK.
NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. BUT, AGAIN AS WE WORK THROUGH,
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING THIS IN A SMART WAY.
>> OKAY, SO THE PROBLEM IS, AND YOU MENTIONED ALLIES.
IT APPEARS THAT, LET'S SAY, GERMANY, WHICH HAS THE TANK
VIGIL, THE LEOPARD 2, WHICH IT SEEMS EVERYONE IS FOCUSING ON.
THE UKRAINIANS WON, IT'S MUCH MORE FLEXIBLE THAN THE ABRAMS.
IT'S APPARENTLY MUCH MORE SUITED FOR THAT BATTLEFIELD.
AND YET, IT APPEARS THE GERMANS DON'T WANT TO BE THE FIRST TO
SEND A TANK. THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ACCUSED
OF A GERMAN-LED ESCALATION. SO, IS THIS GETTING DOWN TO, I
DON'T EVEN KNOW TO SAY. BUT THE GERMANS IN THE POLLS --
THE POLLS ARE SAYING, THIS IS JUST WASTING TIME.
SOMEONE'S AND THE TANKS ALREADY.
>> THE BRITS HAVE ALREADY AGREED TO SEND SOME OF THE
CHALLENGER TANKS, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY VERY, VERY WELCOME.
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE -- AND WE HAD THIS DISCUSSION LAST
WEEK. TANKS WERE CERTAINLY ON THE
AGENDA. BUT YOU CAN SEE FROM THE
RESULTS OF THAT MEETING IN GERMANY HOW MANY DOZENS OF
NATIONS ARE WILLING TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE WITH
SOPHISTICATED WEAPONS SYSTEMS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
AND WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, IS THESE ARE NATIONAL
DECISIONS. THEY ARE SOVEREIGN DECISIONS.
I CERTAINLY CANNOT SPEAK FOR THE GERMANS OR WHAT IS GOING
INTO THEIR CALCULUS ABOUT THE LEOPARD TANKS.
BUT LEOPARDS ARE VERY GOOD. AND THERE'S A LOT OF THEM ON
THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT. AND CERTAINLY, THEY COULD BE
EFFECTIVE ON THE BATTLEFIELD. BUT, AGAIN --
THEY HAVE TO WORK THROUGH THIS IN A SOVEREIGN WAY.
THAT'S BEEN OUR APPROACH SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE WAR.
WE WANT NATIONS TO CONTRIBUTE WHAT THEY CAN WHEN THEY CAN, ON
THE SCALE IF THEY CAN. BUT WE ARE NOT TWISTING ARMS.
WE'RE NOT FORCING PEOPLE TO GIVE MORE THAN THEY ARE WILLING
TO GIVE. EACH COMPANY COUNTRY HAS
NATIONAL SECURITY INTEREST TO PUT HIS --
CONCERT ON THEIR OWN. >> BUT YOU SEE THE THING IS,
FOR THE LAST NEARLY A YEAR YOU'VE ALL SAID THIS IS OUR
JOINT NATIONAL SECURITY CRISIS. OUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE, OUR
EXISTENTIAL MISSION IS TO MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE WINS AND
PUTIN IS DEFEATED. THAT'S BEEN YOUR MANTRA
THROUGHOUT. AND NOW, WE'VE GOT WOULD APPEAR
TO BE, ANYWAY, OR BEING DESCRIBED AS, INCLUDING BY THE
KREMLIN SPOKESMAN, A DIVISION BETWEEN NATO ALLIES AND A
DIVISION BETWEEN NATO AND UKRAINE.
THIS IS PLAYING RIGHT INTO VLADIMIR PUTIN'S HANDS.
>> I WOULD TAKE WHATEVER MR. PESKOV SAYS WITH A HUGE GRAIN
OF SALT. NATO HAS NEVER BEEN MORE
STAUNCHLY UNITED THAN IT HAS BEEN OVER THE LAST YEAR WITH
THIS WAR IN UKRAINE. AND OUR LOOKING AT GROWING THE
ALLIANCE BY TWO OTHER NATIONS. BECAUSE OF WHAT MR. PUTIN HAS
DONE THERE. IT'S A LOT OF COUNTRIES IN THE
ALLIANCE. AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO EVER
AGREE ON EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF EVERY DECISION REALIZED MAKES.
THAT'S WHAT MAKES THE ALLIANCE SO STRONG.
THEIR FRIENDS, ALLIES AND PARTNERS COULD HAVE HONEST
DISCUSSIONS WITH ONE ANOTHER. BUT TO SAY THIS IS DIVIDING THE
ALLIANCE ARE SOMEHOW PUTTING INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AT RISK
IN UKRAINE BECAUSE THERE'S A DISCUSSION OVER TANKS IS JUST
WAY OVER BLOWING THIS THING. >> SO AS YOU KNOW, POLAND HAS
SAID AND OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT THEY WANT TO SEND THEIR GERMAN
MADE LEOPARD TANKS IF THEY CAN GET A SMALL COALITION OF THE
WILLING TO DO THAT. THE GERMAN MEN FOREIGN MINISTER
SAID HER COUNTRY WILL NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF OTHER COUNTRIES
DOING THAT SHOULD THEY WANT TO. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, IS THERE A
DIFFERENCE OF OPINION ON STRATEGY?
LET'S PUT ASIDE THE WEAPONS, ALTHOUGH IT'S PART OF IT.
BUT CLEARLY, THE BRITS AND YOU SAW THE BRITISH FOREIGN
MINISTER IN WASHINGTON RECENTLY SAY, NOW IS THE TIME.
WE BELIEVE, IF THEY GET ALL THE WEAPONS THEY NEED --
THAT THIS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY IS A TIME TO ARM THE MOB.
AND BE ABLE TO SCORE A VICTORY THIS YEAR.
BUT, YOUR CHAIRMAN OF JOINT CHIEFS, MARK MILLEY SAYS, NO,
NOT THIS YEAR. WHAT IS?
IT IS THE UNITED STATES TRYING TO DRAG THIS OUT?
TRYING TO WEAKEN THE RUSSIANS? DOES THE UNITED STATES NOT
THINK THAT YOU CAN SCORE A VICTORY?
WHAT IS THE STRATEGIC DIFFERENCE THERE?
>> WE OBVIOUSLY WANT TO SEE THIS WAR AND.
TODAY COULD IF PUTIN PULLS THE TROOPS OUT, IT'S NOT GONNA,
HAPPEN I RECOGNIZE THAT. WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS DRAG
ON ONE SINGLE DAY THAN TODAY. BUT IN THE MEANTIME WE HAVE TO
MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE CAN SUCCEED ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
SO THAT IF AND WHEN MR. ZELENSKYY IS READY TO GO TO THE
NEGOTIATING TABLE, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT, BE THEY CAN DO THAT
WITH STRENGTH AND HAND. HE HAS SUCCESS ON THE
BATTLEFIELD BEHIND HIM, AND WIND IN HIS BACK.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON. AND EVERY NATION INSIDE THIS
COALITION OF THE WILLING AS WE MIGHT CALL, IT IS PROVIDING
CAPABILITY. SOMETIMES IT JUST FINANCES.
AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT. TO HELP UKRAINE GET INTO A
BETTER POSITION. THE STRATEGY ON THE BATTLEFIELD,
THAT HAS TO BE UP TO MR. ZELENSKYY AND HIS MILITARY
LEADERS. HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GOING TO
DETERMINE WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO STRIKE, WHEN THEY ARE GOING
TO STRIKE, AND WHAT FORCE. WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS IN
ADVANCE OF THOSE OPERATIONS, AND WE EXPECT THE FIGHTING IS
GOING TO CONTINUE THROUGHOUT THE WINNER, IT'S BEEN A VIOLENT
WINTER THROUGHOUT THE DONBAS, AND INTO THE SPRING.
IN ADVANCE OF THOSE DECISIONS, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE
ARE IN LOCKSTEP WITH MR. ZELENSKYY AND HIS MILITARY
LEADERS ABOUT THE CAPABILITY HE NEEDS TO GET THEIR.
A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THIS IS THE BATTALION TRAINING THAT WE'RE
DOING OUTSIDE OF UKRAINE AT A BATTALION LEVEL.
FOR UKRAINIAN BATTALIONS ON WHAT WE CALL COMBINE ARMS
OPERATIONS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE DONBAS A LOT
OF OPEN FARMLAND, OPEN TERRAIN. THAT IS WHAT MR. ZELENSKYY AND
HIS MILITARY LEADERS FEEL THEY NEED TO IMPROVE.
THEIR COMBINED ARMS OPERATION IN THAT PART OF THE COUNTRY.
GOING INTO THE SPRING. AND SO WE'RE DOING THAT
TRAINING OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY.
IT'S NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES.
THERE'S OTHER NATIONS INVOLVED. AND A LOT OF THE VEHICLES THAT
YOU'VE SEEN US, GIVEN JUST THE LAST TWO WEEKS --
THE STRIKER, COMBAT VEHICLES, THE M WRAPS, FROM IRAQ AND
AFGHANISTAN. THOSE MINE RESISTANT, ARMOR
PROTECTIVE VEHICLES. ALL OF THOSE ARE GOING TO HELP
WITH THE UKRAINIAN FORCES IN THE FIELD, IN THE DONBAS, IN
THE COMING MONTHS. WE'RE VERY MUCH TRYING TO STAY
AHEAD OF THE FIGHT AS MR. ZELENSKYY SEIZED IT.
SHOTS DOES NOT CAN YOU TAKE A BACK INTO THE OR GOVERNMENT MY
QUESTION IS, DO YOU SEE MANY STRATEGIST THAT THERE IS A
WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY NOW TO EXPLOIT RUSSIA'S APPARENT
WEAKNESS, ITS INABILITY TO REALLY DOUBLE DOWN AND TAKE SO
MUCH TERRITORY. BEFORE, YOU ALL SAID, THEY ARE
REGROUPING FOR A MASSIVE OFFENSIVE IN THE SPRING.
>> WE ARE ALL MINDFUL OF THE TIME COMPONENT HERE, CHRISTIANE,
AND WE KNOW THAT TIME IS NOT OUR FRIEND, AND THAT IS NOT THE
FRIEND OF UKRAINE. WE HAVE OBVIOUSLY WINTER RIGHT
NOW, WEATHER CONDITIONS ARE NOT IDEAL FOR FIGHTING, AND YET
FIGHTING CONTINUES IN THE AIR AND ON THE GROUND.
WE HAVE MR. PUTIN CONTINUING TO STRIKE CIVILIAN TARGETS WITH
CRUISE MISSILES AND DRONES, COMING IN FROM IRAN, AND WE
KNOW, AS YOU RIGHTLY POINTED OUT, THAT HE IS REGROUPING AND
PREPARING HIMSELF FOR MORE AGGRESSIVE OPERATIONS TO COME
IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, PROBABLY IN THE SPRING WHEN THE
WEATHER GETS BETTER. AND SO YOU KNOW WE ARE AT A
CRITICAL POINT, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS CALLED THIS
INFLECTION POINT. AND SO THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE
SEEING SO MUCH ENERGY BEING PUT IN BY THE ALLIES TO GET UKRAINE
THE KIND OF CAPABILITIES THAT THEY NEED FOR THESE COMBINED
ARE MANEUVERS, OPERATIONS, THAT WE THINK THEY WILL BE
CONDUCTING PROBABLY IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.
OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE MINDFUL OF THAT, AND THAT IS WHY YOU'VE
SEEN TO REALLY BEGIN SECURITY ASSISTANCE PACKAGES FROM THE
UNITED STATES ALONE IN JUST THE LAST FEW WEEKS.
OTHER NATIONS ARE STEPPING UP AS WELL.