WHEN THEY BOLTED ON BOEHNER,
THEY COULDN’T PASS THE BILL.
>> LET’S BRING INTO THIS
CONVERSATION "WASHINGTON POST"
COLUMNIST MAX BOOT.
HE’S A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE
COUNSEL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS.
AND MAX, YOUR MOST RECENT COLUMN
FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST" IS
ENTITLED, THE GOP CAN’T BE
SAVED.
CENTER-RIGHT VOTERS NEED TO
BECOME BIDEN REPUBLICANS.
AND IN IT, YOU WRITE IN PART
THIS.
THE GOP REMAINS A CULT OF
PERSONALITY FOR THE WORST
PRESIDENT IN THE U.S. HISTORY.
IT HAS BECOME A BASTION OF
IRRATIONALITY, CONSPIRACY
MORNING
CONSPIRACYMONGERING, RACISM,
NATIVISM.
CENTRISTS HAVE A BINARY CHOICE.
SUPPORT EITHER AN INCREASINGLY
EXTREMIST AND OBSTRUCTIONIST
REPUBLICAN PARTY OR A DEMOCRATIC
PARTY THAT UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN
IS WORKING TO SOLVE OUR MOST
PRESSING PROBLEMS.
BIDEN IS GOVERNING FROM THE NEW
CENTER, WHILE REPUBLICANS ARE
INCREASINGLY CATERING TO THE FAR
RIGHT, WITH SHRILL, DIVISIVE
RHETORIC AND ANTI-DEMOCRATIC
ACTIONS, SUCH AS BILLS TO
RESTRICT VOTING.
UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, THOSE
OF US ON THE CENTER RIGHT CAN’T
AFFORD A THIRD PARTY FLIRTATION.
WE NEED TO BECOME BIDEN
REPUBLICANS.
>> YEAH, MAX, PROGRESSIVES
CERTAINLY NEED TO BE WARNED AND
CERTAINLY NEED TO PREPARE
THEMSELVES FOR THAT REALITY,
BECAUSE JUST LOOK AT THE SUBURBS
OF ATLANTA.
THE SUBURBS OF ATLANTA THAT
ALWAYS VOTED FOR REPUBLICANS, AT
LEAST IN THE LAST 30, 40 YEARS,
ALWAYS VOTED FOR REPUBLICAN
PRESIDENTS, WOULD ALWAYS LIFT
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES TO VICTORY.
AND THEY’RE LEAVING.
THAT’S HAPPENING IN SUBURBS FROM
CHARLOTTE TO PHOENIX.
AND WHERE ARE THOSE PEOPLE GOING
TO GO?
WELL, I DON’T KNOW ABOUT YOU,
I’M AN INDEPENDENT, BUT AT SOME
POINT
POINT, THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO
MAKE A DECISION, AND CHANCES ARE
GOOD AS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
TURNS FURTHER AND FURTHER INWARD
ON THEMSELVES AND THEY’RE
TALKING ABOUT DR. SEUSS AND
TALKING ABOUT MR. POTATO HEAD,
THEY’RE GOING TO BECOME
CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS.
AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS GOING TO
DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS GOING TO
EXPAND
EXPAND.
THERE’S LIKELY GOING TO BE AN
FDR-STYLE COALITION.
IT IS GOING TO BECOME THE
DOMINANT SOURCE IN REPUBLICAN
POLITICS, BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO
BE A CENTER-LEFT PARTY IF THESE
TRENDS -- AND I KNOW NOWHERE
ELSEWHERE FORMER REPUBLICANS AND
CONSERVATIVES WHO SUPPORT
LIBERAL DEMOCRACY GO.
IF THEY’RE GOING TO A PARTY OF
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
SO THAT PARTY EXPANDS AND
BECOMES MORE MODERATE.
BECOMES A LITTLE MORE
CONSERVATIVE THAN IT IS RIGHT
NOW, RIGHT?
>> YEAH, NO, I THINK THAT’S
EXACTLY RIGHT, JOE.
THIS FEELS TO ME LIKE A MOMENT
LIKE THE EARLY 1980s.
WHEN WE HAD THE REAGAN DEMOCRATS
WHO WE THOUGHT THAT THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS TOO LEFT
WING, WENT TO THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
THOSE WERE THE BLUE COLLAR-TYPE
OF VOTER WHO MADE THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY MORE POPULIST, PROVIDED A
HUGE PART OF THE REAGAN
COALITION.
AND I THINK WE’RE SEEING
SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR GOING ON
RIGHT NOW WITH A VERY DIFFERENT
DEMOGRAPHIC, BECAUSE YOU STILL
HAVE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIGH
SCHOOL GRADUATES, THEY’RE STILL
STAYING IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY,
WHITE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES ARE
STAYING IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY,
BUT YOU’RE SEEING INCREASINGLY
COLLEGE GRADUATES MIGRANTING
TOWARDS THE DEMOCRATS.
SUBURBAN VOTERS ARE MIGRATING
TOWARDS THE DEMOCRATS.
AND I THINK THAT JOE BIDEN HAS
AN HISTORIC OPPORTUNITY TO
ACCELERATE AND CEMENT THAT
TRANSFORMATION OF AMERICAN
POLITICS.
AND I THINK HE’S DOING A VERY
GOOD JOB RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE EVEN
THOUGH HE’S NOT WINNING ANY
REPUBLICAN VOTER FOR HIS
LEGISLATION SO FAR, LIKE HIS BIG
ECONOMIC STIMULUS BILL, HE IS
WINNING A LOT OF SUPPORT IN THE
COUNTRY AT LARGE.
AND YOU’RE SEEING 60 TO 70% OF
AMERICANS SUPPORTING HIM ON HIS
COVID FIGHTING AND HIS ECONOMIC
PLANS.
YOU’RE SEEING HUGE SUPPORT FOR
HIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, DESPITE
ALL THE OPTION AND
OBSTRUCTIONISM FROM REPUBLICANS.
AND YOU KNOW, WHILE BIDEN IS
GRAPPLING WITH THESE MAJOR
ISSUES, HE’S TRYING TO ADDRESS
THESE MASSIVE PROBLEMS WE FACE
LIKE THE PANDEMIC AND THE
ECONOMIC MELTDOWN.
ADDS
AS YOU SAY, WHAT ARE REPUBLICANS
TALKING ABOUT?
THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT DR. SEUSS
AND POTATOHEAD.
THEY’RE TRYING TO WAGE THESE
CULTURE WARS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW
THAT’S WHAT THEIR BASE LIKES,
THAT WHAT KEEPS THE CASH
REGISTERS RINGING AND WHAT KEEPS
FOX VIEWERS EXCITED.
BUT THEY’RE INCREASINGLY
TANGENTIAL TO THE REAL BIDS OF
AMERICAN POLITICS AND AMERICAN
GOVERNANCE.
AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST
MARGINALIZING THEMSELVES IN THIS
ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE OF
ALTERNATIVE FACTS, WHERE
REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS SEEM
MUCH MORE CENTRIST AND MUCH MORE
PRAGMATIC RIGHT NOW, WHICH I
THINK WILL FURTHER ACCELERATE
THE SHIFT IN AMERICAN POLITICS.
>> JON MEACHAM IS WITH US AND
HAS A QUESTION.
JON?
>> HACKSMAX, WHEN YOU TALK TO PE
WHETHER OR NOT SIGNING ON
IMMEDIATELY TO YOUR BIDEN
REPUBLICAN PLATFORM, WHAT DO
THEY SAY?
WHAT DO CONSERVATIVE
INTELLECTUALS, INDIVIDUALS WHO
HAVE SPENT SO MUCH TIME THINKING
ABOUT AMERICA’S ROLE IN THE
WORLD, THINKING ABOUT HOW THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY CAN BE AN
ENGINE FOR LIBERTY, NOT ONLY AT
HOME, BUT ABROAD, DO THEY SEE A
POST-TRUMP FUTURE OR AT THIS
POINT, IS EVERYBODY JUST
HUNKERED DOWN AND WAITING TO SEE
IF EVERYTHING PASSES?
>> WELL, IT’S HARD FOR ME TO
EVEN TALK ABOUT, WHO ARE THE
CONSERVATIVE INTELLECTUALS
ANYMORE, BECAUSE I THINK THERE
HAS BEEN A MASSIVE BIFURCATION
DURING THE TRUMP ERA.
AND YOU’VE SOME OF THESE
SO-CALLED CONSERVATIVE
INTELLECTUALS WHO HAVE BECOME
TRUMP LAP DOGS AND APOLOGISTS
WHO HAVE GONE DEEP INTO THE
SWAMPS OF NATIVISM, NATIONALISM,
XENOPHOBIA, AND HAVE NO
CREDIBILITY LEFT AS TRUE
INTELLECTUAL LEADERS OF THE
PARTY.
AND THEN YOU HAVE OTHERS, YOU
KNOW, FOLKS LIKE BILL KRISTOL
AND OTHERS AND MYSELF INCLUDED,
WHO HAVE BASICALLY THROWN UP OUR
HANDS IN DISGUST AT THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY AND FEEL VERY
HOPELESS RIGHT NOW.
THERE ARE CERTAINLY SOME FOLKS,
I THINK SOME MODERATE, SENSIBLE
FOLKS LIKE ADAM KINZINGER AND
OTHERS, THE CONGRESSMAN FROM
ILLINOIS, WHO ARE STILL FIGHTING
FOR THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
BUT RIGHT NOW, JUST LOOKING AT
THE TREND LINES, TO ME IT LOOKS
PRETTY HOPELESS, WHICH WAS THIS
NEW POLL THAT CAME OUT THAT
SHOWED THAT 60% OF REPUBLICANS
THINK THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS
STOLEN FROM TRUMP.
AND 50% THINK THAT THE CAPITOL
ATTACK ON JANUARY 6th WAS LED BY
LEFT-WING LEADERS TRYING TO
FRAME THE PRESIDENT.
THAT IS WHAT’S BELIEVED BY A
MAJORITY OF THE PARTY.
ON ISSUE AFTER ISSUE, I THINK
REPUBLICANS UNDER TRUMP HAVE
BETRAYED EVERYTHING THEY USED TO
STAND FOR.
THEY ARE NO LONGER THE PARTY OF
FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.
THEY ARE NO LONGER THE PARTY OF
INTERNATIONAL LEADERSHIP.
THEY ARE NO LONGER THE PARTY TO
HAVE FREE TRADE.
THEY ARE CERTAINLY NO LONGER THE
PARTY OF MORALITY AND FAMILY
VALUES.
THEY ARE NO LONGER THE PARTY OF
LAW ENFORCEMENT AFTER THE WAY
THAT TRUMP TRASHED THE FBI AND
OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.
SO YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY STAND FOR
ANYMORE?
IT’S BECOME THIS POPULIST,
EXTREMIST ORGANIZATION THAT
REALLY CATERS TO, YOU KNOW, TO
THE CRAZIEST ELEMENTS IN
AMERICAN POLITICS, FOLKS WHO
SHOW UP AT PLACES LIKE CPAC OR
WATCH, YOU KNOW, FOX NEWS AND
BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT THEY
HEAR.
THAT’S NOT -- YOU KNOW -- THAT’S
NOT A MAINSTREAM VIEW AND IT’S
ALSO -- I DON’T THINK THERE’S A
CREDIBLE INTELLECTUAL POSITION
OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
REPRESENTS ANYMORE.
THEY’RE NOT -- IT’S NOT THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY OF THE 1980s,
I’M SAD TO SAY.
>> MAX, IS THIS AN ERA OF
PERFORMTIVE GRIEVANCE FOR THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY?
IN OTHER WORDS, IS THIS JUST ONE
OF THESE PHASES THAT A PARTY
GOES THROUGH AND MAYBE PEOPLE
LIKE YOU WILL COME BACK HOME TO
TO A CHANGED REPUBLICAN PARTY,
FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, A DECADE
FROM NOW, OR DO YOU BELIEVE THIS
IS NOW SET IN CEMENT?
THAT THIS IS WHAT THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY IS IN THE ERA OF DONALD
TRUMP?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, NOTHING IS
FOREVER.
AND OBVIOUSLY, THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG
TIME.
THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN AROUND
SINCE THE 1850s.
AND IN THOSE YEARS, THEY HAVE
STOOD FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT
THINGS.
THERE’S HUGE, VAST DIFFERENCES,
YOU KNOW, BETWEEN TEDDY
ROOSEVELT AND HERBERT HOOVER,
AND YOU KNOW, RONALD REAGAN AND
DONALD TRUMP.
I MEAN, THEY HAVE BEEN LED BY
MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH MANY
DIFFERENT VIEWS.
SO I DON’T WANT TO SAY THAT THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY, YOU KNOW, A
HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW WILL LOOK
LIKE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TODAY.
BUT FOR THE NEXT FEW ELECTION
CYCLES, FOR THE FORESEEABLE
FUTURE, I DON’T SEE ANYTHING
DIFFERENT HAPPENING.
BECAUSE THIS JUST SEEMS LIKE A
PARTY THAT REMAINS VERY MUCH A
CULT OF PERSONALITY FOR DONALD
TRUMP.
AND REPUBLICANS DON’T SEEM TO
CARE THIS GUY IS PROBABLY THE
WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY.
HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS
OF THOUSANDS OF NEEDLESS DEATHS.
HE’S RESPONSIBLE FOR AN ATTACK
ON THE U.S. CAPITOL.
AND YET 80% OF REPUBLICANS
CONTINUE TO SUPPORT DONALD
TRUMP.
THAT TO ME IS A PICTURE OF A
PARTY THAT HAS -- THAT CAN’T BE
SAVED IN THE NEAR FUTURE.