KILLED IN BUCHA AND THE TOLL IS
RISING, THEY USED SCORCHED EARTH
TACTICS IN ITS FAILED ATTEMPTS
TO CAPTURE KYIV.
>> JOINING US IS NINA KUSHOVA,
THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF
NIKITA KHRUSHCHEV, PROFESSOR OF
INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT THE NEW
SCHOOL, AND COAUTHOR OF THE BOOK "IN PUTIN'S FOOT STEPS," WELCOME
"IN PUTIN'S FOOT STEPS," WELCOME
TO THE SHOW, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU.
SO HAS HIS STRATEGIES AND GOALS
CHANGED?
>> WHAT'S INTERESTING IS A MONTH
AND A HALF OF THIS OPERATION,
THEY HAVE BEEN CHANGING GOAL POSTS ALL THE TIME, IT'S
POSTS ALL THE TIME, IT'S
DIFFERENT, ALL ABOUT DONBAS,
IT'S ALL ABOUT WE ARE DEFENDING
THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE, AND THE
FOOTAGE YOU SHOWED, CLEARLY
RUSSIAN PEOPLE ARE IN GREAT
DANGER.
SO IT'S NOT EXACTLY CLEAR WHERE
PUTIN NEEDS TO STOP OR WANTS TO
STOP, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S
SO DANGEROUS.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FINAL
GOAL IS.
IS IT THE FULL OCCUPATION OF
UKRAINE, IS IT TO PUNISH UKRAINE
THAT UKRAINE HAS RESISTED SO
MUCH.
IS IT REALLY TO COME UP WITH
SOME SORT OF SOLUTION FOR
DONBAS, AND LEAVE UKRAINE ALONE.
WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.
FIRST, YESTERDAY, THERE WAS A
CONVERSATION THAT BY MAY 9th
THEY WOULD NEED TO FINISH THIS
OPERATION.
IT'S THE VICTORY, THE WORLD WAR
VICTORY DAY PARADE, AND THEY
NEED TO SHOW IN THAT A VICTORY.
OR IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THEY
WOULD GO ON BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
READY TO CLAIM THE VICTORY YET.
>> LET ME READ FROM THE LATEST
OPINION PIECE, ENTITLED PUTIN'S
WAR WILL DESTROY RUSSIA.
YOU'RE RIGHT IN PART THIS, IF
PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS
SHOWN US ANYTHING, IT IS THAT WE
CANNOT BELIEVE THE PRESENT AND
ALL THAT MATTERS FOR RUSSIA'S
FUTURE IS ITS PAST.
THERE'S NO GOOD REASON TO
BELIEVE THAT MR. PUTIN ALONE IS
BEHIND THE UKRAINE WAR AND THAT
NOT EVEN THE HIGHEST RANKING
RUSSIAN OFFICIALS HAVE HAD MUCH OF A SAY.
OF A SAY.
HOWEVER, IT STARTED, THE WAR
WILL PROBABLY END IN ONE OF FOUR
WAYS, RUSSIA COULD SEIZE CONTROL
OF PART OF OR ALL OF UKRAINE,
BUT ONLY BRIEFLY.
IN THE SECOND SCENARIO, UKRAINE
AGREES TO RECOGNIZE CRIMEA,
DONESQUE,
DONETSK, LIEU, BUT EVEN AS THE
PUTIN REGIME CLAIMED VICTORY,
RUSSIA WOULD REMAIN A GLOBAL
PARIAH, WITH ITS ECONOMY
PERMANENTLY SCARRED BY
SANCTIONS, ABANDONED BY HUNDREDS
OF GLOBAL COMPANIES AND
INCREASINGLY DEVOID OF YOUNG
PEOPLE.
IN THE THIRD SCENARIO, AN
INCREASINGLY FRUSTRATED MR.
PUTIN DEPLOYS TACTICAL, NUCLEAR
WEAPONS IN UKRAINE.
IN THE FINAL SCENARIO, U.S.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN GETS HIS
WISH.
MR. POUTINUTIN IS REMOVED FROM P
>> WE HEARD IN THE PIECE FROM
RICHARD ENGEL.
RUSSIAN SOLDIERS WERE SAYING
WE'RE HERE TO LIBERATE YOU.
IN THE LIST OF CALCULATIONS, HE
THOUGHT UKRAINIANS WOULD GREET
RUSSIAN FORCES, REUNITING THE
SOVIET EMPIRE, YOU'RE COMING
BACK HOME INTO OUR NATION.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT THE
DYNAMIC OF THE UKRAINIAN, THE
WAY THEY FEEL ABOUT RUSSIA AND
VICE VERSA, HOW THESE TWO
NATIONS VIEW EACH OTHER.
>> WELL, I MEAN, THEY HAD COMMON
HISTORY AND WE KNOW THAT BOTH
RUSSIANS AND UKRAINIANS, EARLY
ON IN THE 1800s SO THEY BOTH
HAIL FROM THERE, BUT THEN
HISTORY SORT OF DIVERGES AND
ESPECIALLY DIVERGES AFTER 1991
WHEN UKRAINE BECAME INDEPENDENT
COUNTRY, AND SOMEHOW PUTIN
DECIDED TO GO BACK TO TREAT
UKRAINE AS AN APPENDAGE, WHICH
OF COURSE IN HIS VIEW WAS
SOMETHING THAT HE'S GOING TO NOW
ALSO GIVE TO UKRAINIANS TO COME
BACK TO THE FOLD OF MOTHER
RUSSIA, AND THAT'S WHAT I WROTE
IN MY PIECES, THAT THIS DECISION
WAS CLEARLY PUTIN'S BECAUSE IT
WAS VERY MUCH, HE'S A KGB MAN.
THE WHOLE THING WAS RUN AS A
CLANDESTINE OPERATION.
THE SECURITY FORCES WERE FEEDING
HIM INFORMATION THAT UKRAINIANS
ARE GOING TO SURRENDER, EVEN
THEY DID NOT BELIEVE HE'S GOING
TO BE SO SUICIDAL AND BASICALLY
SHOOT OFF HIS LEGS AND RUSSIA'S
LEGS FOR, YOU KNOW, CENTURIES.
CERTAINLY DECADES TO COME.
NOW THEY KEEP RUNNING THAT
NARRATIVE, BUT WE ALREADY KNOW
THAT THE NARRATIVE COMPLETELY
HOLDS NO WATER.
WALL TO WALL, HOW WE'RE
LIBERATING FROM THE NAZI REGIME
BEING INSTALLED BY THE UNITED
STATES.
>> HOW IS IT PRIOR TO THE LATEST
EXTREME CENSORSHIP WITHIN RUSSIA
THAT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE HAVE
RESTRICTIVED FOR
LIVED FOR SO LONG UNDER PUTIN,
TRUE LIBERTY AND WITH REGARD TO
THE WAR, DO YOU THINK PUTIN WILL
EVER STOP?
>> HE NEEDS TO WIN.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WILL
CONSTITUTE AS VICTORY, AND
THAT'S WHY I GAVE FOUR RATHER
GRIM SCENARIOS BUT HE NEEDS TO
SHOW VICTORY.
IF VICTORY TAKES TAKING FULL
UKRAINE, YES, BUT WHAT IS REALLY
REMARKABLE IS THAT, YOU KNOW,
RUSSIA WAS DEVOID OF BASIC
LIBERTIES BUT ALSO THEY WERE
QUITE, UNTIL A FEW YEARS AGO,
THEY WERE QUITE VIABLE CIVIL
SOELT
SOCIETY, AND IN THE LAST FEW
YEARS IT STARTED FALLING DOWN
AND FELL OFF THE CLIFF
COMPLETELY AFTER FEBRUARY 24th.
EVEN FOR US, WHO KNEW HOW ALL
THESE FREEDOMS ARE BEING LIMITED
FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, IT STILL
FELT LIKE IT WAS A COMPLETE IRON
CURTAIN FELL AND ESSENTIALLY THE
GREAT TIME, THE FAMOUS TIME OF
1938, SUDDENLY DESCENDED BECAUSE
IT REALLY WAS, FOR WHAT IT WAS
TO WHAT IT IS NOW, IT WAS STILL
A GIANT GAP, SO PUTIN NEEDS TO
WIN, AND HE IS GOING TO DO
EVERYTHING TO SHOW THAT HE DID,
AND ANYBODY WHO DISAGREED WITHIN
RUSSIA OR OUTSIDE OF IT NOW STIS
TREATED AS AN ENEMY.
>> I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THE BRAIN
DRAIN OUT OF RUSSIA RIGHT NOW.
HOW EASY IS IT FOR PEOPLE WHO
SEE THAT PUTIN HAS DONE SERIOUS
PERMANENT DAMAGE TO THE RUSSIAN
PEOPLE BY WHAT HE HAS DONE
FOOLISHLY HERE, HOW MANY OF THE
PEOPLE THAT RUSSIA NEEDS ARE
TRYING TO LEAVE RUSSIA RIGHT NOW
AND MAYBE NEVER TO RETURN.
>> AT THE BEGINNING, THE FIRST
FEW WEEKS, BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A
SHOCK, EVEN FOR THOSE WHO WERE
ALWAYS CRITICAL OF PUTIN, IT WAS
STILL A SHOCK.
I DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD BE SO
SUICIDAL, AND ACTUALLY KILLING
RUSSIA, GO TAKE RUSSIA DOWN WITH
HIM INTO NORTH KOREA TERRITORY.
A LOT OF PEOPLE LEFT, BY NOW,
IT'S 300,000 PEOPLE GONE.
A LOT OF I.T. PEOPLE
DISAPPEARED, A LOT OF ATHLETES
TOOK THE CITIZENSHIP, SO RUSSIA
AS BRAIN DRAIN BUT ALSO TALENT
DRAIN ALL TOGETHER.
SOME PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THIS
THEY WILL COME BACK.
SOME PEOPLE STILL THINK MAYBE BY
THE SUMMER, IT'S GOING TO DIE
DOWN.
IT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER
TO LEAVE BUT IT'S STILL
POSSIBLE.
ISTANBUL, TURKEY, BECAME THE
OASIS FOR RUSSIAN RUNNING THINK
TANKS AND I.T. FIRMS.
IT IS STALINISM, CREW CHEF,KHRUS
BUT I HAVE TO SAY THE SIMILARITY
IS REMARKABLE, HEARTBREAKING AND
SHOCKING BECAUSE AT LEAST THE
PEOPLE WERE FORCED INTO IT.
NOW WE ALLOWED IT TO THAT
HAPPEN.
>> AND OF COURSE STALIN, A HERO.
>> THERE YOU GO.
>> A MAN WHO STARVED, KILLED
MILLIONS OF UKRAINIANS. >> AND I WANT TO SAY UKRAINIANS
>> AND I WANT TO SAY UKRAINIANS
AND A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE.