-Welcome to the show. -Thank you, Trevor.
Let's jump straight into it. Tools and Weapons:
The Promise and the Peril of the Digital Age.
That really sounds like the two extremes
of how people think about technology--
tools and weapons.
Why did you choose that title?
Well, it is because
that is exactly what digital technology has become.
Think about it as a tool.
We use it in our daily lives.
Artificial intelligence will probably help us
-find a cure for cancer. -Right.
But at the same time,
think about the challenges for our privacy,
the threats to security.
Think about the future.
We need to think about both sides of the equation.
And fundamentally, I think we need to recognize
across the tech sector
that if your technology changes the world,
you have to step up.
You have to assume a responsibility
to help address the world you've helped to create.
That's an interesting dilemma we have to think of.
So, like, the robots can cure cancer by killing us.
(laughter)
-Hopefully just the first part. -Then there'd be no cancer.
There'd just be, like... That-that seems like logic.
Like, the robots are like, "Now there's no cancer."
And you're like, "Oh, I thought you guys were gonna cure it."
The robot's like, "Oh, that's too much work."
Um... It-it seems like tech is everything,
and what's interesting in the book
is how you break it down into different spheres.
For instance, you talk about A.I.
and the ethics of A.I.
At Microsoft, you guys are getting into A.I. now,
but do you think A.I. has the potential to become evil,
or is that just something that people say
to scare us from moving into the future?
Well, in a way, any tool can be turned into a weapon.
You know, a broom can be used to sweep the floor
or hit you over the head.
-That's my mom, yes. -Yeah.
Think about now any tool that's so much more powerful.
You know, we're empowering machines to make decisions
that, throughout history, could only be made by people.
-Right. -So if we don't develop now
the kinds of ethical principles needed to guide this,
then we should be worried about where technology is going to go.
And so the time to really be up-front,
to confront this reality is early.
And that's what we and-and many others are trying to do.
It's interesting that you say, you know,
figure out the ethics and the rules now,
because many people are calling
for regulation when it comes to tech.
I mean, we're seeing social media companies
coming under fire. We're seeing Silicon Valley
being scrutinized in a different way.
You are one of the few tech leaders though
who's saying there should be more regulation
on tech companies,
which seems like it's-it's a paradox to what you're doing.
Why would you say more regulation?
Well, in a sense, from a long-term perspective,
you have to have a balance.
You have to sustain the public's trust.
And the best way to sustain the public's trust
is actually to solve problems that worry people,
to have companies do more
but to actually have the government play
an important role as well.
If you just look at the history of technology over time,
which my coauthor, Carol Ann Browne,
and I really tried to do,
what you see is this recurring pattern.
And until government gets involved in a smart way,
-in a balanced way, things get more worrisome. -Mm-hmm.
And, ultimately, even the industries
that create products suffer.
What's interesting about government getting involved
in tech is that, whether they like it or not,
tech is gonna get involved in government.
You know, we've seen around the world, uh,
countries like North Korea, countries like Russia
building up, um, "weapons"
that they used to hack into different countries,
you know, whether it's their power grids,
-whether it's their nuclear reactors, -Mm-hmm.
whether it's their elections.
When you look at how countries
can protect themselves,
A) is it possible and B) is enough being done in the U.S.?
I think it's possible, but we're not doing enough.
You know, we share the stories
about how we started dealing with hacking of e-mail in 2016
-with Hillary Clinton's campaign. -Right.
We talk about how that is spread around the world,
about how we're all, across the tech sector,
doing more to fight disinformation.
I think the thing that should worry us the most
is potential tampering with voting,
especially voting machines that are 15 years old.
Imagine what it would be like next November
to find that someone is elected president
with, say, three states where the votes were close.
And then imagine if we woke up a week later
and found that a foreign government
had hacked voting machines
and some of the votes cast
-had never been cast at all by Americans. -Right.
And we couldn't put it back together.
That would be a disaster to our social order.
And so the time to really try
-to bring people together across political parties... -Mm-hmm.
...to bring tech companies together
with people in government is now,
not a week after our elections go off the rails.
So, I mean, we have the weapons really
in the spotlight right now.
We have a lot of people afraid of technology,
a lot of people worried about their security,
a lot of people worried about their privacy.
-You do pivot in the book to talk about the tools. -Yeah.
And one of the major areas you speak on
is rural broadband.
Why is that such a major issue in your eyes?
I mean, like, people don't even think of rural areas
and not having broadband or having broadband.
But why do you think that's such a big deal?
I think it is so much bigger than we recognize as a country.
Because we get out to these rural communities,
and the first thing you remember
is that really broadband is like electricity to the 21st Century.
What it means for education, what it means for health care.
Increasingly what it means for businesses.
And so, we go out to these communities
-where unemployment rates are high. -Mm-hmm.
Where people feel left behind.
And then you realize, they feel left behind
because, in many ways, they are.
And, you know, a great example was going to a county
in eastern Washington state.
Biggest business has about 170 people who work there.
Until just two months ago,
when we brought new technology to them,
they were running the entire business
on a single copper line
that basically had the same bandwidth
that was about as quarter of... a quarter as fast
as just about everybody who watches this show.
You're trying to run an entire business that way.
Until you bring broadband, you can't bring jobs.
And until you can bring jobs, you can't bring hope.
So if we actually want to bring this country back together,
you have to think about how we can use technology as a tool
to help us solve some of the biggest problems
that really confront us.
Well, luckily, there's a man in the White House
who doesn't listen to any advice.
-Thank you so much for joining us on the show. -Thank you.
Tools and Weapons is available now.
A fascinating look at the role of tech.
Brad Smith, everybody.