a commission of Ostia thank you very
much for joining us here today it's my
pleasure to be here we're really pleased
to have you and I'm sure it's going to
be a very interesting interview indeed
thank you for taking the time I'd like
to start by asking you very generally
about your approach to media
sustainability in Europe and media
plurality and the importance of media
freedom in the current climate of course
it's it is trivial to say that it's more
important than ever but maybe that is
indeed the case because the media
landscape is changing and changing very
fast both sort of on the commercial side
but also when it comes to public
broadcasting things are changing and the
thing is that our the whole idea of our
democracy is that it takes place in open
spaces where things can be contradicted
fact-checked
supporters everything that happens when
you have a debate and you need
independent free Pro press to support
that because otherwise well we would be
left with nothing and that nothing very
often would be then substituted with
propaganda mm-hmm indeed and one of the
recent instruments that the EU has
adopted as a means to support the Indian
independent presses of course been the
copyright directive now president macron
called upon European competition
authorities recently to investigate
Google's implementation of the new
copyright directive we know of course
that Google will revise the way in which
it displays French news search results
as a way of potentially avoiding having
to remunerated
now do you have a message firstly for
Google and secondly for mr. macron on
this issue well you know we do our
casework we don't send messages but I
think the most important thing here is
to make sure that we are not dealing
with things that should be dealt with
with copyright authorities but obviously
there can be an issue of of bio power
when you have a relationship where
there is indeed a giant that sets their
own terms and condition terms and
condition that would not be what you
thought of neither in the spirit nor in
the letter of the new copyright
legislation and do you do you think
Google are not complying with the spirit
of the copyright directive well we have
not been looking into this yet in detail
we're in contact with the French
competition authorities in order to see
what what they do to see if they would
want to to handle the question or if if
we should have a look so in that respect
it's only days but obviously the idea of
changing the copyright directive was to
make sure that those who create the
content which is why you come you come
for the high quality journalism you come
from the access you come from the
singer-songwriters you come you come
from for substance for content for the
quality that those should be remunerated
because you don't come from the
advertising this is how you make money
on the side okay great
moving on now to the digital Services
Act due to be proposed in 2020 could you
tell us a bit more about how
preparations are coming along for this
at the moment and whether we can expect
any elements of the digital Services Act
to support media sustainability in terms
of perhaps looking at fake news or
disinformation types of content like
that well I think this is way too early
because right now our digital Services
Act works very much like an umbrella for
all the points of view that cannot find
another home in order to get some
shelter from the rain and obviously we
have to make sure that we get our
priorities right
because if you want to make something
Giants then it will take a very very
very long time if ever to get it
approved so obviously the first thing
that we'll do is to take stock of the
situation as it is how are we doing with
the different codes of practices and
conduct how are we with liabilities and
what is of course needed to
a level playing field between the more
the media that has a traditional
background and now transitioning into
being fully digital and those who were
the digital natives and how do you
reflect on the code of practice against
this information so far I mean the
results were kind of patchy all
throughout the previous year
or at least since it was introduced at
the beginning of 2019 do you think the
platform's have been pulling their
weight in this regard well I don't work
with this first hunt
but Julian king who has been handling
this say that yes there has been
progress but we're indeed not there yet
because it still takes a lot of time and
and you would never accept this
situation if it was something dealt with
by an ordinary paper where you have an
editorial board the responsible editor
such so there's still a way to go but at
the same time I think my colleagues they
recognize the progress that has been
made
also because more people are joining the
different codes and that of course is
progressed as well but as far as I
understood how he saw the state of
matters we're not satisfied yet and do
you envisage that regulation could be a
possibility in the field of
disinformation in the future well yes it
could but it it would take us fully to
understand what we're dealing with
because there is a a continuum of what
is you know will't manipulation
propaganda direct lies and what is a
point of view selecting certain facts
and leaving out other facts and this is
what of course makes it very tricky and
we've had I think very good discussions
about this in colleagues because in
college because I've been working with
colleagues who were raised and lived on
the other side of the Iron Curtain who
knows exactly what it is to live in a
society where you have state censorship
and this is of course why it's important
to figure out what are we dealing with
and maybe also some some to evacuate the
territory of free speech versus
censorship and sometimes to see it what
it is which is to make sort of the
digital side of things applying the same
rules as we have in a world that is a
well where we're dealing with the
physical side of things so you're saying
this dichotomy between free speech and
censorship perhaps is a bit of a false
binary that it's more important to
parallel or mirror the approaches that
we have in the day to day press with
what we have online well the thing is
that we have spent decades if not longer
to discuss and figure out what we're
dealing with when we talk about freedom
of the press freedom of speech the
responsibility you have as an editor and
not only have we discussed we have also
agreed on what is the responsibility
that you have and how to be held to that
responsibility and maybe we should more
directly make a parallel to doubts in in
sort of the digital side of things
because we would not accept that a more
traditional paper when going digital
then said both but I have no
responsibility anymore I don't have an
integer chief anymore well of course you
do and and I think we need to find new
ways to discuss this because otherwise
we end up in this very very hard crunch
between points of view that are very
very difficult that has great
difficulties in being aligned mm-hmm
okay I'm just going back to the point
you made about freedom of the press what
does that mean in practice for you in
Europe today
well first and formost that you have
that access that there is a high degree
of transparency of course when it comes
to to government the state affairs
agencies but also that there is a
transparency we
it comes to companies matters matter
that you you can actually write stories
that are critical and freedom of press
also that there are more voices that you
can come with a different perspective
but you're independent to write your
story's going back to the point you made
about state affairs do you have any
concerns about operations in central or
Eastern Europe and I'm specifically
referring to the casma media empire in
Hungary at the moment and how many media
outlets have been put under this
supposed state umbrella
well yes but we have no access to review
this murder because due to Hungarian law
the government can say well this sector
is of crucial importance for national
interests and then they can accept it
from merger scrutiny and this means that
we don't have a second say on this
murder and that is of course sometimes a
a paradox because because you don't want
sort of the European democracy to have a
say about media plurality that has been
left specifically to member states
because closest to the citizens you know
a lot of very good reasons as to why to
do that but this also means that if you
have a Member States who decides to work
for concentration well then we don't
have a tool in our European democracy to
act against that should we well I think
it would be a good idea to have a more
shared perspective because I agree with
the good reasons as to why you would
want that responsibility to be on the
closest possible to citizens but at the
same time I think we have very little to
to protect us when things doesn't work
as it was meant to be because I think
there is a meaning as to why you want
member states to handle media plurality
because you want media plurality but I
don't know
it should be done you know already that
we have these discussions about
conditionality when it comes to rule of
law and I think it would be important
first to evaluate well how far can we
take that to say well it is a full
membership when you join the European
Union
it is both the economic side but it's
also the value side of things moving on
now two different subjects AI and ethics
of course there are these plans to
present a strategy within the first 100
days or at least an approach can you
give us an insight into what we can
expect maybe the spirit of any AI and
ethics strategy to abide by that's all
at this stage of course there is there
is something to go with because this is
not Greenfield we have the seven
principles of how to create AI that we
can trust a number of businesses they
are doing pilots right now to see how to
use these principles in real life and
will report back in the beginning of
December so of course we know a lot and
as we speak AI is being developed all
over Europe although our our our planet
for me the important thing is to say
well what do we actually need for for AI
to be created with the purpose so that
we can create the better services the
better transportation the better health
the better whatever that we would want
to create and and this is why to some
degree what we will work on is a is a
consultation paper because we have great
opportunities in front of us when it
comes to using artificial intelligence
to go through amounts of data that we as
humans never ever would be able to go
through and to learn from that the thing
is that if you have great opportunities
that comes with great risks so of course
the ambition would be to say well how
can we minimize the risks without also
minimizing the opportunities and in in
doing that of course we would want the
views
from stakeholders specifically with
regards to I what's your stance on
facial recognition technologies and the
acting head of the European data
protection supervisor recently raised
some some concerns about its application
across Europe and various member states
have adopted differing positions on
facial recognition so far what's your
take on this technology well I have
strong reservations to sort of a blanket
use of facial recognition I think it has
its time and place where it will make
very very good use but I think it's very
important that we create societies in
public space where you're not objective
of super variance all the time ok I'd
like to talk a bit about digital
sovereignty and because this is one of
commission president delegate Ursula von
der Leyen priorities for the next five
years what does digital sovereignty mean
to you and how can europe go out there
and obtain it well my first thoughts
about it is that we make make the most
of technology also with partners that
are non-european because it is an open
global world but also that we take much
more pride and priority into what we
have to build on ourselves you know
we're working on a important project of
common European interest within
batteries we have one already in in
micro electronics Europe has a strong
industry when it comes to the
business-to-business technology so
there's a lot in which we could build
for me the important thing is that we
keep having an international outlook
because we would also want to create a a
market for European technology and and I
think that is part of being a being able
to state then you have technological
serenity that it's also to be used
outside of Europe that we can influence
what happens global scale
I think that we are in the process of
doing when it comes to GDP our to the
very idea that we as citizens have
digital citizens right that we should be
ambitious that it's not just about
Europe it's also what kind of of global
impression can we have in this respect
okay talking a bit more about Europe's
place in the world rightly or wrongly US
President Donald Trump said earlier this
year that you hate the United States
how can you tread the fine line of
ensuring fair competition in digital
markets while also maintaining strong
global diplomatic relationships I think
it's important to say well just as well
as as we respect authorities in other
jurisdictions obviously we expect the
same and everyone is welcome to do
business in Europe if by the European
rulebook and and one of the reasons why
we have had cases where US companies are
involved it's not because of the flag
it's because there are complaints and a
lot of those complaints they come from
other US companies because Europe is a
great place to do business
wonderful Commissioner thank you very
much it's my pleasure thank you thank
you for you
thank you