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>> We're back at AWS re:Invent 2021.
It's the biggest hybrid event of the year.
One of the few physical events and we're psyched to be here.
My name is Dave Vellante,
and I'm really pleased to bring back the host emeritus,
Stu Miniman, somebody I worked with side-by-side, Stu,
for 10 years in a setting much like this, many like this.
So, good to have you back.
>> Dave, it's great to be here with theCUBE team,
family here and re:Invent, Dave.
I mean, this show, I remember back, Dave,
going to you after the first re:Invent we talked,
we were like, "We got to be there."
Dave, remember the first year we came,
the second year of re:Invent, this is the 10th year now,
little card tables, gaming companies, all this stuff.
You had Jerry Chen on yesterday
and Jerry was comparing like,
this is going to be like the next Microsoft.
And we bet heavy on this ecosystem.
And yeah, we all think this cloud thing, it might be real.
20,000 people here, it's not the 50 or 75,000
that we had in like 2018, 2019, but this ecosystem,
what's happening in the cloud,
multiple versions of hybrid going on with the event
and the services, but yeah, phenomenal stuff.
And yeah, it's so nice to see people.
>> That's for sure.
It's something that we've talked about a lot
over the years is,
and you remember the early days of re:Invent
and to this day, just very a strong developer affinity
that AWS has done a tremendous job of building that up
and it's their raison d'etre,
it's how they approach the market.
But now you've been at Red Hat for a bit,
obviously as well, developer affinity,
what have you learned?
Specifically as it relates to the cloud,
Kubernetes, hottest thing going,
you don't want to do an OpenShift commercial, but it's there,
you're in the middle of that mix.
What have you learned generally?
>> Well, Dave, to the comment
that you made about developers here,
it's developers and the enterprise.
We used to have a joke and say,
enterprise developer is an oxymoron,
but that line between developers doing stuff,
early as a cloud, it was stealth computing.
It's they're often doing this stuff
and central IT is not managing it.
So how do the pieces come together?
How do apps and infrastructure,
how do those pieces come together?
And it's something that Red Hat has been doing a long time.
Think about the Linux developer.
They might've not have been the app developers,
the people building Linux and everything,
but they had a decent close tie to it.
I'm on the OpenShift team.
What we do is cloud, Dave,
and we've got a partnership here with Amazon.
We GAID our native cloud service earlier this year.
Andy Jassy helped name it.
It is the beautifully named
Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS or ROSA.
But we've done OpenShift on AWS for more than five years,
basically since we were doing Kubernetes,
it's been here because of course customers doing cloud,
where are they?
A lot of them are here in Amazon.
So I've been loving talking to a lot of customers,
understanding how enterprise adoption is increasing,
how we can enable developers and help them move faster.
And yeah, I mean the quick plug on OpenShift is our service.
We've got an SRE team that is going to manage all of that.
A friend of the program, Corey Quinn, says,
"Hey, an SRE team like that,
because you don't want to manage as an enterprise."
You don't want to manage Kubernetes.
Yeah, you need to understand some of the pieces,
but what is important to your business is the applications,
your data and all those things
and managing the undifferentiated heavy lifting.
That's one of the reasons you went to the cloud.
So therefore changing your model
as to how you consume services in the cloud.
And what are we seeing with Amazon, Dave?
They're trying to build more solutions,
simplify deployments, and offer more solutions
including with their ecosystem.
>> So I want to ask you.
You said enterprise developer is kind of an oxymoron,
and I remember, years ago I used to hang around
with a lot of heads of application development
and insurance companies and financial services,
pharmaceutical, and they didn't wear hoodies,
but they didn't wear suits either.
And then when I talked
to guys like Jeff Clark, for instance.
He talks about we're building an abstraction layer
across clouds, blah, blah, blah,
which by the way, I think it is the right strategy.
I'm like, "Okay, I'll drink some of that Kool-Aid."
And then when I come here, we talked to Adam Selipsky.
John flew out and I was on the chime.
He goes, "Yeah, that's not hybrid.
No, this is nothing like, it's not AWS, AWS is cloud."
So, square that circle for me,
'cause you're in both worlds
and certainly your strategy is to connect those words.
Is that cloud?
>> Yeah, right.
I mean, Dave, we spent years talking
about like is private cloud really a cloud?
And when we started coming to the show,
there is only one cloud.
It is the public cloud and Amazon is the paragon of,
I don't know what it was.
>> Dave: Fake clouds, cloud washing.
>> So today, Amazon's putting lots of things
into your data center and extending the cloud
out to that environment.
>> So that's cloud.
>> That's cloud.
>> What do we call that cloud?
What about the reverse?
>> What's happening at the edge is that cloud
is that extension of what we said from Amazon.
If you look at not only Outpost,
but Wavelengths and Local Zones
and everything else like that.
>> Let's say, yes, that's cloud.
The APIs, primitives, check.
>> Dave, I've always thought cloud is an operating model,
not a location.
And the hybrid definition is not the old,
I didn't ebook on this, Dave earlier this year.
It's not the decade old NIS definition of an application
that spans because I don't get up in the morning
as an enterprise and say, "Oh, let me look at the table
of how much Google is charging me or Microsoft or Amazon,"
or wake up one morning and move from one cloud to the other.
Portability, follow the sun type stuff, does it ever happen?
Yes, but it is rare thing.
Applications oftentimes get pulled apart.
So we've seen if you talk about AI,
training the cloud, then transact and do things at the edge.
If I'm in an autonomous vehicle
or in a geosynchronous satellite,
I can't be going back to the cloud to process stuff.
So I get what I need and I process there.
The same thing hybrid,
oftentimes I will do my transactional activity
in the public cloud
because I've got unlimited compute capability,
but I might have my repository of data
for many different reasons, governance or security,
all these things in my own data center.
So parts of an application might live there,
but I don't just span to go between the public cloud
in my data center or the edge,
it's specific architectural decisions as to how we do this.
And by the way the developer,
they don't want to have to think about location.
I mean, my background, servers, storage, virtualization,
all that stuff,
that was very much an infrastructure up look of things.
Developers want to worry about their code
and make sure that it works in production.
>> Okay, let me test that.
If it's in the AWS cloud
and I think it's true for the other hyperscale clouds too,
they don't have to think about location,
but they still have to think
about location on-prem, don't they?
>> Well, Dave, even in a public cloud,
you do need to worry about sometimes it's like,
"Okay, do I split it between availability zones?
How do I build that?
How do I do that?"
So there are things that we build on top of it.
So we've seen Amazon.
>> I think that's fair, data sovereignty,
you have to think about okay.
>> Absolutely, a lot of those things.
>> Okay, but the experience in Germany
is going to be the same as it is in DC, is it not?
>> More or less?
There are some differences we'll see off
and Amazon will roll things out over time
and what's available, you've got cloud.
>> For sure, though that's definitely true.
That's a maturity thing, right?
You've talked a bit,
but ultimately they all sort of catch up.
I guess my question would be is the delta between,
let's say, Fed adoption and East Coast,
is that delta narrower,
significantly narrow than what you might see on-prem?
>> The services are the same,
sometimes for financial or political things,
there might be some slight differences,
but yes, the cloud experience
should be the same everywhere from Amazon.
>> Is it from a standpoint of hybrid,
on-prem to cloud, across cloud?
>> Many of the things when they go outside
of the Amazon data centers are limited
or a little bit different
or you might have latency considerations
that you have to consider.
>> Now it's a tug of war.
>> So it's not totally seamless because,
David Foyer would tell us there,
"You're not going to fight physics."
There are certain things that we need to have
and we've changed the way we architect things
because it's no longer the bottleneck
of the local scuzzy connection that you have there,
it is now (indistinct).
>> But the point I'm making is that gets into a tug of war
of "Our way is better than your way."
And the answer is depends
in terms of your workload and the use case.
>> You've looked at some of these new databases
that span globes and do things of the like.
>> Another question, I don't know if you saw
the Goldman Sachs deal this morning,
Goldman Sachs is basically turning its business into a SaaS
and pointing it to their hedge funds
and allowing people to access their data, their tools,
their software that they built for their own purposes.
And now they're outselling it.
Similar to what NASDAQ has done.
I can't imagine doing that without containers.
>> Yeah, so interesting point, I think.
At least six years ago now,
Amazon load serverless
and serverless was going to take over the world.
I dug into the space for a couple of years.
And you had the serverless with camp
and you had the container camp.
Last year at re:Invent,
I really felt a shift from Amazon's positioning
that many of the abstraction layers and the tools
that help you support those environments
will now span between Lambda and containers.
The container world
has been adding serverless functionality.
So Amazon does Fargate.
The open-source community uses something called Knative,
and just breaking this week.
Knative was a project that Google started
and it looks like that is going to move over to the CNCF.
So be part of the whole Kubernetes ecosystem
and everything like that.
Oracle, VMware, IBM, Red Hat,
all heavily involved in Knative,
and we're all excited to see that go into the CNCF.
So the reason I say that, I've seen from Amazon, I actually,
John and I, when we interviewed Andy Jassy back in 2017,
I asked him a follow-up question
because he said if he was to build AWS in 2017,
"I would start with everything underneath it serverless."
I would wonder if following up with Adam or Andy today,
I'd said, "Would it be all serverless
or would containers be a piece of it?"
Because sometimes underneath it doesn't matter
or sometimes it can be containers and serverless.
It's a single unit in Amazon and when they position things,
it's now that spectrum of unit,
everything from the serverless
through the containers, through...
James Hamilton wrote a blog post today
about running Xen-on-Nitro
and they have a migration service for a mainframe.
So what do we know?
That one of the only things about IT
is almost nothing ever goes away.
I mean, it sounded like Amazon declared
coming soon the end of life of mainframe.
My friends over at IBM might not be quite ready
to call that era over but we shall see.
All these things take time.
Everything in IT is additive.
I'm happy to see.
It is very much usually an end world
when I look at the container and Kubernetes space.
That is something
that you can have a broad spectrum of applications.
So some of my more monolithic applications can move over,
my cool new data, AI things, I can build on it,
microservices in between.
And so, it's a broad platform that spans the cloud,
the edge, the data center.
So that cloud operating model
is easier to have consistency all the places that I go.
>> Mainframe is in the cloud.
Well, we'll see.
Big banks by the next site unseen.
So I think Amazon will be able to eat away
at the edges of that,
but I don't think there's going to be a major migration.
They claim it.
Their big thing is that you can't get COBOL programmers.
So I'm like, "Yeah, call DXe, you'll get plenty."
Let's talk about something more interesting.
(Stu laughs softly)
So the last 10 years was a lot of,
a lot about IT transformation
and there was a lot more room to grow there.
I mean, the four big hyperscalers
are going to do 120 billion this year.
They're growing at 35%.
Maybe it's not a trillion, but there's a $500 billion market
that they're going after, maybe more.
It looks like there's a real move.
You saw that with NASDAQ, the Goldman deal,
to really drive into business, deeper business integration
in addition to IT transformation.
So how do you see the next decade of cloud?
What should we be watching?
>> So, one of the interesting trends,
I mean, Dave, for years we covered big data
and big data felt very horizontal in it's approach thing.
Hadoop take over the world.
When I look at AI solutions,
when I look at the edge computing technologies that happen,
they're very vertically driven.
So, our early customers in edge adoption
tend to be like telco with the 5G rollout manufacturing
in some of their environments.
AI, every single industry has a whole set of use cases
that they're using that go very deep.
So I think cloud computing goes from,
we talked about infrastructure as a service
to it needs to be more, it is solution,
some of these pieces go together.
When Adam got up on stage and talked
about how many instance types they have on Amazon,
Dave, it's got to be 2X or 4X more different instant types
than if I went to go to HPE or Dell
and buy a physical server for my environment.
So we need to have areas and guidance and blueprints
and heck, use some of that ML and AI
to help drive people to the right solutions
because we definitely have the paradox of choice today.
So I think you will find some gravity
moving towards some of these environments.
Gravatar has been really interesting to watch.
Obviously that Annapurna acquisition
should be down as one of the biggest ones in the cloud era.
>> No lack of optionality to your point.
So I guess to the point of deeper business integration,
that's the big question,
will Amazon provide more solution abstractions?
They certainly do with Connect.
We didn't hear a ton of that this show.
>> Interestingly.
(Dave speaking indistinctly)
So the article that you and John Furrier wrote
after meeting with Adam, the thing that caught my eye
is discussion of community and ecosystems.
And one of the things coming after,
some, big communities out there like,
you and I lived through the VMware ecosystem
in that very tight community.
There are forming little areas of community here
in this group, but it's not a single cloud community.
There are those focus areas that they have.
And I do love to see, I mean, obviously working for Red Hat,
talking about the ecosystem support.
I was very happy to hear Adam mention Red Hat in the keynote
as one of the key hybrid partners there.
So, for Amazon to get from the 60 million,
the 60 billion to the trillion dollar mark down the road,
it's going to take a village
and we're happy to be a part of it.
>> Hey, great to have you back, enjoy the rest of the show.
This is, let's see, day three, we're wrapping up.
We're here again tomorrow so check it out.
Special thanks to obviously AWS is our anchor sponsor
and of course, AMD for sponsoring the editorial segments
of our event.
You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage.
See you tomorrow.
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