SPIN THE REPORT IS WE HAD LEFT
THE PLAYING FIELD OPEN FOR THEM
TO DO SO.
JOINING US NOW, THE WRITER AT
THE ATLANTIC WHO WROTE THAT
INCREDIBLE PIECE WITH THE EARLY
LOOK AT ANDREW WEISSMANN’S NEW
BOOK, GEORGE PACKER.
YOU’RE THE AUTHOR OF MY FAVORITE
BOOK OF ALL TIME "THE
UNWINDING."
IT’S A PLEASURE TO GET TO TALK
TO YOU.
>> THANK YOU, NICOLLE.
>> I HAVE TO ASK YOU -- THANK
YOU.
THANK YOU FOR WRITING IT.
I LOOK AT IT STILL, IT’S THE
BEST EXPLANATION OF HOW WE GOT
HERE THAT I HAVE EVER READ.
WE’LL HAVE THAT CONVERSATION
ANOTHER DAY, BUT TELL ME WHAT
YOU THOUGHT.
I ASSUME YOU READ THE BOOK AND
TALKED TO ANDREW ABOUT IT.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS
ACCOUNT?
IT’S JUST A BLOCKBUSTER
REVELATION THAT PEOPLE INSIDE
WHAT SEEMED LIKE, AND LOOK, THIS
IS NEVER THE CASE, BUT THEY
SEEMED SO TIGHTLY KNIT TOGETHER.
SOMEONE ON THE INSIDE AT A VERY
SENIOR LEVEL HAD SERIOUS
MISGIVINGS.
>> THERE WAS A LOT OF
CAMARADERIE IN THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL’S OFFICE.
A LOT OF MUTUAL RESPECT, BUT
THERE ALSO TURNS OUT TO HAVE
BEEN A LOT OF DISAGREEMENTS OVER
HOW HARD TO PUSH, HOW FAR TO
PUSH AT CRUCIAL MOMENTS.
THERE WERE PEOPLE CLOSE TO
MUELLER, IN PARTICULAR WISEMEN
NAMES A LAWYER NAMED AARON
ZEBLEY WHO WERE HESITANT TO GO
TOO FAR BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID
THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD EXPLODE,
PERHAPS MUELLER WOULD BE FIRED,
THE WHOLE INVESTIGATION WOULD BE
SHUT DOWN.
AND IN OTHER CASES, TRUMP’S
PARDON POWER ALLOWED WITNESSES
AND SUSPECTS TO STONEWALL THE
OFFICE AND THERE WASN’T MUCH
THEY COULD DO ABOUT THAT BECAUSE
THE PARDON POWER IS
PRESIDENTIAL.
BUT BASICALLY, THROUGHOUT THOSE
TWO YEARS AND INCREASINGLY
TOWARD THE END, WEISSMANN AND A
COUPLE OF HIS COLLEAGUES WERE
FRUSTRATED THAT THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL WAS ALLOWING SOME MOVES
TO GO UNMADE.
AND SOME TOOLS TO BE UNUSED.
AND IN THE END, THE WAY THE
REPORT WAS WRITTEN AND RELEASED
ALLOWED THE ADMINISTRATION,
ESPECIALLY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
WILLIAM BARR, TO ESSENTIALLY
EXONERATE TRUMP.
AGAINST ALL THE EVIDENCE IN THE
MUELLER REPORT, BECAUSE MUELLER
IN PERHAPS A FIT OF EXCESSIVE
FAIRNESS, DECIDED THAT HE COULD
NOT SAY THAT TRUMP HAD BROKEN
THE LAW BECAUSE A SITTING
PRESIDENT CAN’T BE INDICTED.
SO TRUMP WOULD NOT TECHNICALLY
HAVE THE CHANCE TO DEFEND
HIMSELF IN COURT.
BUT WEISSMANN HAS ALL SORTS OF
ARGUMENTS FOR WHILE MUELLER
DIDN’T NEED TO COME TO THAT
DECISION AND WHY IT CAUSED A
TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF HEARTACHE
IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL’S OFFICE.
>> SO YOU MENTIONED THIS
PERSONAL ATTACK ON THE DECISION
MAKING AND MANAGEMENT OF THE
CASES BY AARON ZEBLEY.
HE ACTUAL GOT DISPENSATION IN A
REALLY EXTRAORDINARY TURN OF
EVENTS TO SIT NEXT TO MUELLER
WHEN HE TESTIFIED, SO THERE’S NO
ONE MORE VISIBLY ASSOCIATED WITH
THE DECISIONS, BUT LET ME TICK
THROUGH WHAT I DEDUCED FROM YOUR
REPORT ABOUT WHAT HE IS
CRITICIZING.
HE’S CRITICIZING ONE, THERE’S A
LINE IN YOUR STORY SAYING THEY
WERE HAMSTRUNG NOT TO LOOK AT
TRUMP’S FINANCIAL DEALINGS WITH
RUSSIA, WHICH MIGHT HAVE
ESTABLISHED A SOURCE OF RUSSIAN
LEVERAGE OVER TRUMP BUT WHICH
THE PRESIDENT DECLARED A RED
LINE NOT TO BE CROSSED.
THEY’RE SAYING THEY DIDN’T GET
THE FINANCIAL RECORDS.
HE ALSO CRITICIZED THEY DIDN’T
USE THEIR SUBPOENA POWER TO GET
AN INTERVIEW WITH THE PRESIDENT,
AND THEN HE CALLS OUT WHAT YOU
JUST DESCRIBED, THE FACT THAT
WITNESSES FOR THE COLLUSION
CASE, NOT THE COLLUSION CASES,
BUT THE SIDE OF THE
INVESTIGATION THAT WAS FOCUSED
ON THE TIES TO RUSSIA, NOT THE
OBSTRUCTION OF THE WHOLE
INVESTIGATION ITSELF, THAT THEIR
WITNESSES WERE LYING BECAUSE
DONALD TRUMP HAD DANGLED PARDONS
IN FRONT OF THEM.
WHAT DID THEY HAVE GOING FOR
THEM?
>> YOU KNOW, IT SEEMED AT THE
OUTSET AND FROM THE OUTSIDE THAT
THEY HAD ALL THE TOOLS OF
INTERNAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
INVESTIGATION.
THAT THEY WOULD BE LEFT ALONE BY
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO DO THEIR
JOB, WHICH WAS TO SUBPOENA, TO
TALK TO WITNESSES, TO BRING
INDICTMENTS, TO CHARGE, TO TRY,
TO CONVICT, AND THEY DID THAT IN
SOME CASES.
IN FACT, THEY GOT A LOT OF
CONVICTIONS.
AND A LOT OF INDICTMENTS,
INCLUDING IN WEISSMANN’S THE
MOST IMPORTANT WAS PAUL
MANAFORT, TRUMP’S FORMER
CAMPAIGN CHAIR, AND WHO IN
EVERYTHING EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, BY
THE ABSOLUTE LETTER OF THE LAW,
WAS COLLUDING WITH A RUSSIAN
INTELLIGENCE OFFICER, KILIMNIK
IN ORDER -- IN EXCHANGING
CAMPAIGN INFORMATION TO KILIMNIK
IN EXCHANGE FOR FAVORS FROM
KILIMNIK.
AS THE REPORT SAID IN THE
APPENDIX, THIS IS WHAT COLLUSION
LOOKS LIKE.
BUT BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T
INTERVIEW THE PRESIDENT, SINCE
MUELLER DECIDED IT WOULD NOT BE
WORTH THE BATTLE WITH THE WHITE
HOUSE TO GO ALL THE WAY UP TO
THE SUPREME COURT IN ORDER TO
SUBPOENA HIM TO APPEAR, THEY
COULDN’T ASK THE PRESIDENT WHAT
HE KNEW ABOUT MANAFORT’S
DEALINGS.
AND WHAT HE KNEW ABOUT A WHOLE
HOST OF THINGS.
AND IN THE WRITTEN QUESTIONS
THAT TRUMP ANSWERED, THE ANSWERS
WERE AS WEISSMANN SAYS, ALMOST
WORTHLESS.
EVASIVE, FULL OF I DON’T