>>> NEW REPORTING IS GIVING US AN INSIDE LOOK AT DEMOCRATIC
STRATEGY WHEN IT COMES TO
IMPEACHING THIS PRESIDENT.
OUR OWN HEIDI PRZYBYLA REPORTS
THAT ACCORDING TO MULTIPLE
PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH
DELIBERATIONS, AND THIS IS
IMPORTANT, HOUSE DEMOCRATS ARE,
QUOTE, ZEROING IN ON A FRAMEWORK
FOR THEIR IMPEACHMENT CASE THAT
WILL CENTER ON A SIMPLE ABUSE OF
POWER NARRATIVE INVOLVING THE
PRESIDENT’S ACTIONS REGARDING
UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. THE REPORT GOES ON TO SAY, AND
WE QUOTE, STILL UNDER DEBATE IS
WHETHER LEADERS WILL ROLL
POTENTIAL OBSTRUCTION CHARGES
RELATED TO MUELLER’S
INVESTIGATION INTO THE SAME
ARTICLE THAT DEALS WITH UKRAINE.
ONE PERSON WE WANTED TO TALK TO
ABOUT THIS TONIGHT TURNS OUT IS
AVAILABLE.
AVAILABLE. FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, JOYCE
VANCE, WHO SPENT 25 YEARS AS A
FEDERAL PROSECUTOR.
FEDERAL PROSECUTOR. JOYCE, TALK ABOUT THIS BECAUSE
IT SEEMS DIRECTLY INFORMED BY
THE DENSITY AND COMPLEXITY OF
THE MUELLER REPORT.
NO LESS A DOCUMENT, BUT IT JUST
WASN’T DIGESTED AND UNDERSTOOD
BY THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
IT’S A SUCCESS RELIDGE, BUT HAD
IT BEEN A TWITTER THREAD OF 20
ITEMS, PEOPLE MAY HAVE COME AWAY
WITH A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF
IT THAN THAT.
ALSO TALK ABOUT THE TEMPTATION
AS THEY SAY ABOUT LEGISLATION,
WHEN THEY START ADDING
AMENDMENTS, IT BECOMES A
CHRISTMAS TREE, THE TEMPTATION
TO THROW OTHER STUFF IN THE
HOPPER.
HOPPER. >> SO I THINK ONE OF THE ISSUES
THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT NOW
IS STRATEGY AND PRAGMATIC
ENGAGEMENT WHEN YOU’RE DRAFTING
A CHARGING DOCUMENT LIKE
ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.
THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS A LOT OF
EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT WITH THE
TOPIC OF THE PRESIDENT’S
BEHAVIOR ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
EQUATION, RIGHT?
EQUATION, RIGHT? BUT FROM A PROSECUTOR’S POINT OF
VIEW, AND THAT’S WHAT’LL HAPPEN
WHEN CONGRESS DRAFTS ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT, THE HOUSE WILL BE
ACTING AS PROSECUTORS.
YOU NEED TO DRAFT AN EFFECTIVE
DOCUMENT, AND THAT OFTEN MEANS
CRAFTING A SIMPLE NARRATIVE, A
NARRATIVE THAT PEOPLE CAN
READILY UNDERSTAND AND SEIZE
ONTO.
ONTO. EVERY PROSECUTOR KNOWS HORROR
STORIES ABOUT A PUBLIC
CORRUPTION CASE OR A
WHITE-COLLAR CASE THAT WAS OVER
INDICTED, THAT BECAME TOO
COMPLEX FOR THE JURY TO
UNDERSTAND.
UNDERSTAND. SO THE BEST PATH FORWARD HERE
WILL BE ONE THAT IN MANY WAYS
AVOIDS THE PITFALLS OF THE
MUELLER REPORT, AVOIDS THE LEVEL
OF COMPLEXITY THAT CAME BACK
OVERWHELMING AND CONFUSING, AND
ADOPT AN ALMOST TRUMP-LIKE
STRATEGY OF STRINGING TOGETHER
SOME READILY UNDERSTOOD BUMPER
STICKERS.
STICKERS. >> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO MEMBERS OF
THE CAUCUS WHO SAY, LOOK, OVER
HERE, THESE THINGS HE DID HERE
ARE MUCH WORSE?
THIS CHARGE OVER HERE WE’RE
LEAVING ON THE SIDE IS MUCH
WORSE.
WORSE. YOU TRY TO TELL THEM IT’S BEST
FOR THE WHOLE TO GO UNDER THIS
ONE BANNER?
ONE BANNER? >> SO THIS WILL BE, I THINK, A
FIERCELY NEGOTIATED PROCESS.
THE ABUSE OF TRUST NARRATIVE IS
VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND.
WE DON’T TRADE OUR NATIONAL
SECURITY FOR POLITICAL FAVORS
FOR A PRESIDENT.
WITH THAT AS THE CENTERPIECE,
IT’LL BE POSSIBLE TO ADD SOME
ADDITIONAL PIECES.
ADDITIONAL PIECES. I THINK LIKELY CONTEMPT OF
CONGRESS OR OBSTRUCTION OF
CONGRESS PLAYS IN, PERHAPS AN
EMOLUMENTS CLAUSE CHARGE.
BUT THE CHALLENGE WILL BE TO
REMEMBER THAT THE DEMOCRATS F
THEY’RE PLAYING FOR KEEPS, HAVE
TO PICK UP VOTES IN THE SENATE
FROM REPUBLICANS.
FROM REPUBLICANS. EVEN THOUGH WE HEAR THIS
STATISTIC THAT MORE AMERICANS
HAN NOT FAVOR IMPEACHMENT, THAT
STATISTIC DOESN’T HOLD TRUE IN
EVERY STATE.
EVERY STATE. SO IN STATES LIKE ALABAMA, FOR
INSTANCE, WHERE TRUMP IS STILL
VERY POPULAR, THERE WILL HAVE TO
BE A NARRATIVE THAT’S COMPELLING
ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN’T
PREDISPOSED TO BELIEVE IT TO
CATCH ON BECAUSE ULTIMATELY
SENATORS FROM THOSE STATES,
REPUBLICAN SENATORS WILL NOT
CHANGE THEIR VOTES IN FAVOR OF
IMPEACHMENT UNLESS THEY FEEL
COMFORTABLE THAT THE PEOPLE THAT
THEY REPRESENT ARE ON BOARD.
>> JOYCE --
>> THAT’S WHAT MAKES SIMPLICITY
AND CLARITY CRITICAL.
>> I WANT TO SPEND A WORD HERE
TALKING ABOUT RUDY GIULIANI.
THIS IS REPORTING FROM "THE NEW
YORK TIMES."
YORK TIMES." THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DISTANCED
ITSELF ON SUNDAY FROM RUDOLPH
GIULIANI, DECLARING DEPARTMENT
OFFICIALS WOULD NOT HAVE MET
WITH MR. GIULIANI TO DISCUSS ONE
OF HIS CLIENTS HAD THEY KNOWN
FEDERAL PROSECUTORS IN NEW YORK
WERE INVESTIGATING TWO OF HIS
ASSOCIATES.
ASSOCIATES. A LOT MORE PICTURES HAVE BECOME
PUBLIC THANKS TO "THE WALL
STREET JOURNAL" REPORTING
SHOWING THE CLOSENESS BETWEEN
RUDY AND THESE GUYS AND THE
WHOLE CIRCLE OF THEM.
WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT
POTENTIAL TROUBLE FOR RUDY
GIULIANI?
GIULIANI? >> THIS SITUATION REALLY BOGGLES
THE MIND BECAUSE TYPICALLY DOJ
HAS A STRICT POLICY OF NOT
COMMENTING ON ONGOING
INVESTIGATIONS.
INVESTIGATIONS. DOJ DOESN’T ACKNOWLEDGE THAT
INVESTIGATIONS ARE UNDER WAY
EXCEPT IN VERY RARE CASES,
PRIMARILY INVOLVING CIVIL
RIGHTS.
RIGHTS. SO DOING THIS IS TACITLY
ACKNOWLEDGING THAT GIULIANI IS
UNDER INVESTIGATION.
UNDER INVESTIGATION. I APPRECIATE THAT THERE’S BEEN
REPORTING AND COVERAGE ON THIS
ON THAT, BUT DOJ WILL TYPICALLY
NOT WEIGH IN TO PRESERVE THE
RIGHTS OF THOSE UNDER
INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATION. THE ENTIRE SITUATION SPEAKS OF
DYSFUNCTION.
DYSFUNCTION. THE LAWYER FOR THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES WHO’S IN THE
HAULS OF DOJ TRYING TO NEGOTIATE
CASES FOR HIS CLIENTS WHILE THE
FOLKS PERHAPS THAT HE’S
NEGOTIATING WITH HAVE THIS
UNDERSTANDING OF HIS
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES IS REALLY