In last week's episode, we talked about Pepe,
the polysemous frog.
Let's see what you have to say.
William Nash, [INAUDIBLE], and a bunch of other people pointed
out-- rightfully so--
that the story about the offensive use
of the V for Victory sign in the UK
is not actually related to archers saying
that they are going to get [INAUDIBLE]
and that thing has been debunked.
So we'll put some links to historians talking about how
that meeting has developed.
And how it is pretty unlikely that it goes back
to the Hundred Years' War, like we said it was.
But I just want to point out two things
that I think are interesting.
First, that this goes to show you
that things that you think you know
are things that you should just check Snopes to make sure
that you do, in fact, know them.
Because I so clearly remember the day
in high school in history class, learning about this.
And I don't remember if I learned it from the book
or if it was something that the teacher said,
but like, man, never would have guessed that this was not
actually true.
So, knowledge is weird.
I'm also going to strike this trash,
because it's distracted Morgan.
Should I move my hand, too?
And the second thing is that even if it is incorrect,
it doesn't change the fact that that use is still
homonomous and not polysemous, which
I think is really interesting.
Even if the use itself, as an insult,
is polysemous and that it is related to the earlier uses
as a sign for peace or victory, this misunderstanding
separates that tradition and creates a new one.
And so, even though that knowledge is incorrect,
the conclusion weirdly still stands.
So, yeah-- crazy.
Sean B. and a couple other people
pointed out that there are a few other uses of Pepe
that we didn't mention in the video.
Specifically the first being his relationship
to a kind of internet occultism and his existence or symbology,
as it relates to frog gods and the frog
as a metaphysical symbol.
Which there have been some YouTube videos
and some posts written about.
We'll include some links to that in the description.
And also the use of Pepe as a symbol of the kind of jokey
in-group/fake nation of Kekestan or Kekestan.
And his relationship to a kind of "ethnic group"
of internet [BLEEP] posters.
As is often the case when we don't talk about something,
even though they're big uses--
we've got to cut ourselves off somewhere,
or else we're going to be making 20-minute episodes.
But yeah, I think this is part of the conversation.
And I think will become more part of the conversation,
possibly, if the groups of people who identify
Pepe as primarily these things--
a sort of metaphysical symbol or a symbol
of some invented country or jokey membership
to that invented country--
become large.
If those groups become large, than maybe
that will dictate what Pepe means to the larger community
or to the larger conversation on the internet.
As of right now, I, at least, view them as relatively niche,
at least in comparison to Pepe's understanding as a hate
symbol--
something covered by the ADL.
But yeah, definitely a part of this conversation.
[INAUDIBLE] draws a similarity between the way Peppe
is and perhaps will continue to change
meaning to the meaning of that ubiquitous Che Guevara
symbol of his face that you've seen in a lot of places.
On t-shirts-- I actually saw one on the back
of a Jeep on the way to the studio today.
And yeah, I think that this is--
there's a lot of co-option of these counter-cultural symbols
into very mundane, almost like [INAUDIBLE] says,
capitalist symbols.
And the one that comes immediately to my mind
is the one from my youth--
the anarchy symbol, which was plastered on every product
you could possibly imagine in the mid-to-late 90s.
And you had people who were announcing their allegiance
to anarchy by purchasing mugs with the anarchy
symbol at Hot Topic.
Just about as opposite as you can get
from the root philosophy there.
But I think, yeah, the way that these symbols
are taken on and changed--
especially by commercial forces--
is definitely one model of looking at how you might change
or how Pepe might be changed.
And that may be the solution to reclaim Pepe--
is to make him as normie as humanly possible
and to put him on some T-shirts at Hot Topic.
[INAUDIBLE] says that there maybe isn't even really any
saving necessary, but rather we should understand what Pepe is.
And that Pepe is not something that has a specific meaning.
And that Pepe is really like a brush or a color.
And I saw a couple other comments
that were things like, Pepe is not a symbol, Pepe is a canvas.
Pepe is something that doesn't have a primary meaning,
except for what people believe his primary meaning is.
And so if we can develop our understanding of what exactly
this frog character is at his base,
then you might find that there is no reclaiming
necessary-- there's no changing of meaning
or challenging or rescuing that needs to be done.
You just need to realize that when someone
uses Pepe as a white supremacist symbol,
that person is likely a white supremacist.
And when someone doesn't, they likely are not.
David C. makes a kind of rising tides
raise all ships argument about rehabilitating Pepe.
And saying that any work that might be done to give him
another meaning would just elevate his presence
or notoriety as a symbol of hate.
And I think this is a really interesting and maybe
overly-careful argument.
But is one that I can appreciate from the perspective of not
wanting to give any quarter to white nationalism or neo-Nazis.
I think it's important to not deny their existence
and to not attempt to just forget that they exist.
But when it comes to giving any kind of promotion
to their ideas and possibly improving upon them in any way
or helping them reach a larger audience,
there is a question of whether or not
any kind of change to Pepe, even a positive one,
would, in the long run be doing more harm than good.
I don't know.
I'm not feeling like I can come down on either side.
But I think it's an interesting question.
[INAUDIBLE] asks a really good question about whether
or not the use of the swastika by punks
in the UK in the 70s backfired-- in that it essentially welcomed
neo-Nazis to the community.
And whether or not there is a chance
that the same thing could happen to Pepe.
And I think that this is a really, really great question
that I can speak in parts to.
So I actually don't know a whole lot
about the history of the use of the swastika as a punk rock
symbol.
I just know the broad strokes.
So I'm not prepared to say that, in general,
the presence of Nazi punks or neo-Nazis or skinheads,
specifically, in the punk rock community
is attributable to the use of the swastika in the 70s
by those punk rockers.
I'm not sure.
I'm also not sure whether or not it is genealogically-related.
Like, I can't say for sure that their presence now
can be traced through several events
to the usage of that symbol then.
What I can say is that I think that I do--
just from my experience in the punk rock
community-- have a little bit of a sense
of why Nazis show up to shows.
But I will also qualify this by saying,
I've never actually asked them.
Just they never really happened to be
a group of people who seemed interested
in having polite conversation or in answering questions.
I could be totally wrong.
But my take was always this--
that the reason Nazis showed up-- or skinheads, really
specifically-- showed up to the shows that I was at
is because they knew that it was going
to be a group of people who they could start something with.
And I think that there's two reasons for that--
I think that the sonic qualities of punk rock
have something to do with it.
That there is a certain identification
with the level of aggression that the music advertises.
I also see this a little bit in the metal communities
that I got to see when I was growing up.
A lot of skinheads and neo-Nazis would show up to those shows.
I think for similar reasons, but not nearly with the frequency
that they would show up to punk rock shows.
I think, because-- at least in my experience-- at metal shows,
people were not interested in fighting them.
But punk rockers were definitely interested in fighting them.
And I think that that has to do a lot with the fact that punk
is almost a political ideology or a political stance,
instead of attitudes, as much, if not
more than it is a music genre.
And so that is a group of people who
have carved out a very specific kind of musical
and also political space for themselves that they feel--
I think rightfully so-- a very strong need to protect.
Both for themselves and both as a model for other communities
that draw inspiration from punk rock-- which
there is no shortage.
And so a skinhead could show up to a show
looking a lot like a skinhead, not hiding,
and know that there is going to be some response.
Which is, I think, exactly what they were looking for.
So whether or not this kind of thing
would backfire in trying to rehabilitate
an internet image--
whether or not the rehabilitation of this symbol
and its inclusion in other communities
would then make white supremacists
feel like they are then welcome in those communities.
I want to say, at least based on the punk rock
history that I know--
at least personally-- the answer would be no.
But I would be really interested to hear what other people's
experiences have been.
If they've had similar experiences or what
they think theoretically the case might be.
But yeah, this is a really good question.
And Morgan and I had to shoot this comment response
like six times in order for me to get my thoughts in order.
So, yeah, always a good sign for a good question.
[INAUDIBLE], who has a good, A-plus username,
asks whether or not there are essentially
any uncorruptible symbols.
And I would wager that probably not.
There is probably not anything that
is inherently uncorruptible.
But my immediate impulse was to think
about the most used emojis.
And whether or not it would be unlikely
that you would be able to change the meaning of the most
popular emojis significantly enough
to make them mean something that is very negative
or widely recognized as being hateful or inappropriate.
I'm thinking about the smiley emojis.
Or I'm thinking about the crying-while-laughing emoji.
Those, to me, seem like really good candidates.
There was some discussion about Bugs Bunny.
And I almost feel like popular characters and images
laden with a kind of specific meaning might almost be easier?
But I can't exactly say why.
But I think this is a great question.
I'd be curious to know what other people think about images
that they think are uncorruptible.