>>> IT WAS A REALLY BLUNT WAY TO PUT IT, BUT I THINK THAT WAS THE
POINT.
POINT. IT WAS A MONTH AFTER DONALD
TRUMP HAD JUST BEEN ELECTED
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. QUOTE, AMERICANS ARE NO WISER
THAN THE EUROPEANS WHO SAW
DEMOCRACY YIELD TO FASCISM,
NAZIISM, COMMUNISM.
NAZIISM, COMMUNISM. OUR ONE ADVANTAGE IS THAT WE
MIGHT LEARN FROM THEIR
EXPERIENCE.
EXPERIENCE. NOW IS A GOOD TIME TO DO SO.
HERE ARE 20 LESSONS FROM THE
20th CENTURY ADAPTED TO THE
CIRCUMSTANCES OF TODAY.
THAT WAS A FACEBOOK POST FROM A
MONTH AFTER TRUMP WAS ELECTED.
IT BASICALLY BROKE THE INTERNET
AT THE TIME.
BY POPULAR DEMAND, IT SOON
TURNED INTO THIS SURVIVOR’S
GUIDE OF A BOOK THAT LIKELY YOU
OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW HAVE A DOG
EARED COPY OF OR MAYBE THAT
YOU’VE BEEN CARRYING AROUND IN
YOUR BAG FOR A COUPLE YEARS IF
YOU’RE LIKE ME.
IT IS CALLED "ON TYRANNY:
LESSONS FROM THE 20th CENTURY."
IT IS FILLED WITH SOBERING
ADVICE FOR BEING A CITIZEN IN A
COUNTRY THAT IS AT RISK.
BAG CITIZEN WHERE DEMOCRATIC
NORMS AND THE BASICS OF OUR
SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT SUDDENLY
DON’T SEEM LIKE A GIVEN ANYMORE.
IT’S NOT AN ACTIVIST’S GUIDE PER
SE, IT’S A SURVIVOR’S GUIDE.
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" ADVISED
APPROACHING IT LIKE A MEDICAL
PAMPHLET ON AN INFECTIOUS
DISEASE.
DISEASE. QUOTE, READ IT CAREFULLY AND BE
ON THE LOOKOUT FOR SYMPTOMS.
CASE IN POINT, LESSON NUMBER
TWO, DEFEND INSTITUTIONS.
INSTITUTIONS HELP US TO PRESERVE
DECENCY.
DECENCY. THEY FALL ONE AFTER THE OTHER
UNLESS EACH IS DEFENDED FROM THE
BEGINNING.
BEGINNING. SO CHOOSE AN INSTITUTION YOU
CARE ABOUT A COURT, A LAW, A
LABOR UNION, AND TAKE ITS SIDE.
THIS IS FROM LESSON 14.
ESTABLISH A PRIVATE LIFE.
NASTIER RULERS WILL USE WHAT
THEY KNOW ABOUT YOU TO PUSH YOUR
AROUND.
AROUND. SCRUB YOUR COMPUTER OF MALWARE
ON A REGULAR BASIS.
HAVE PERSONAL EXCHANGES IN
PERSON.
PERSON. FOR THE SAME REASON, ROLE OF ANY
LEGAL TROUBLE.
LEGAL TROUBLE. TRY NOT TO HAVE HOOKS.
THIS IS FROM LESSON 5.
THIS HAS BEEN STUCK INTO ME LIKE
A SPLINTER UNDER A FINGER NAIL.
YOU WILL SEE WHY WHEN I TELL YOU
WHAT IT IS.
LESSONS 5 IS REMEMBER
PROFESSIONAL ETHICS.
PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. WHEN POLITICAL LEADERS ASSET
NEGATIVE EXAMPLE, PROFESSIONAL
COMMITMENTS TO JUST PRACTICE
BECOME MORE IMPORTANT.
IT’S HARD TO SUBVERT A RULE OF
LAW STATE WITHOUT LAWYERS, OR TO
HOLD SHOW TRIALS WITHOUT JUDGES.
AUTHORITY CONTAINERS NEED
OBEDIENT CIVIL SERVANTS.
CONCENTRATION CAMP DIRECTORS
SEEK BUSINESSMEN INTERESTED IN
CHEAP LABOR.
CHEAP LABOR. LIKE I SAID, STARK, RIGHT?
BUT IT IS NOT DRAWN UP FROM
NOWHERE.
NOWHERE. IT’S SPECIFICALLY DRAWN UP FROM
AN EXPERT’S HISTORY OF OTHER
COUNTRIES, OTHER COUNTRIES NO
DUMBER AND NO WISER THAN OURS,
THAT NEVERTHELESS LOST THEIR
DEMOCRACIES AT SOME POINT IN THE
20th CENTURY.
20th CENTURY. YALE PROFESSOR TIMOTHY SNIDER
SPEAKS FIVE AND READS TEN
DIFFERENT EUROPEAN LANGUAGES.
HE HAS STUDIED RUSSIA AND
UKRAINE FOR A QUARTER CENTURY.
OUR COUNTRY IS NOW STARTING THE
PROCESS OF IMPEACHING THE
PROCESS BECAUSE OF HIM TRYING TO
ENLIST THE GOVERNMENT OF UKRAINE
AGAINST HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES,
ALSO APPARENTLY TO MUDDY THE
WATERS ABOUT RUSSIA HELPING HIM
WIN THE LAST ELECTION.
BECAUSE OF THAT, I ASKED
PROFESSOR SNIDER IF HE WOULDN’T
MIND COMING TO THE STUDIO
TONIGHT TO HELP GIVE US HELP
WITH THIS.
WITH THIS. HE’S JOINING US NOW, AUTHOR OF
"THE ROAD TO UNFREEDOM."
PROFESSOR, THANK YOU FOR BEING
HERE.
HERE. >> VERY GLAD.
>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU, AS A
HISTORIAN, AS A PUBLIC
INTELLIGENTUAL TO TALK TO PEOPLE
ABOUT RUSSIA, TALK TO AMERICANS
ABOUT RUSSIA, TALK TO US ABOUT
FREEDOM AND THE CONTEXT OF WHAT
HAPPENED IN OUR ELECTION, HOW
ARE YOU FEELING THIS WEEK?
>> I’M FEELING LIKE PEOPLE ARE
UNDERSTANDING SOMETHING WHICH WE
NEEDED TO UNDERSTAND FROM THE
BEGINNING, NAMELY, THAT WE’RE
ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.
A LOT OF THE WAYS OUR DEMOCRACY
IS GOING SOUR HAPPENED ALREADY
IN RUSSIA.
IN RUSSIA. A LOT OF THINGS THAT THE
RUSSIANS ARE DOING TO US INVOLVE
JUST KIND OF JOLLYING US ALONG.
MR. TRUMP SAYING, WELL, YEAH, OF
COURSE INTERFERING WITH SPECIAL
ELECTIONS OKAY.
ELECTIONS OKAY. EVERYBODY DOES IT.
THAT’S EXACTLY THE LINE WHICH
RUSSIA IS TRYING TO PUSH.
THERE AREN’T FACTS, THERE’S NOT
LAW, THERE’S NOT JUSTICE.
EVERYTHING’S REALLY A JOKE.
ONLY POWER MATTERS.
WHAT WE’RE SEEING TODAY IS HOW
THIS FITS TOGETHER.
IT’S NOT JUST THAT RUSH HELPED
MR. TRUMP TO GET ELECTED,
THERE’S A CERTAIN RUSSIAN WAY OF
DOING POLITICS HAS SPREAD
WIDELY.
WIDELY. >> IS THE IDEA THAT THERE’S NO
REASON FOR RUSSIA TO BE HELD TO
ACCOUNT FOR BAD BEHAVIOR BECAUSE
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOOD
BEHAVIOR, THERE IS NO MORAL
LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD OR MORAL
EXPECTATION IN TERMS OF HOW
COUNTRIES SHOULD BEHAVE, AND THE
U.S. AS THE WORLD’S POLICEMAN,
THAT’S BASICALLY HOW THEY SOLD
THEIR INTERNATIONAL STANDING FOR
A GENERATION NOW?
>> LOGICALLY IT MAKES NO SENSE.
EITHER THINGS ARE GOOD OR NOT
GOOD.
GOOD. IF IT’S BAD TO INVADE COUNTRIES
ILLEGAL, IT’S BAD.
WHETHER IT’S A ROCK OR UKRAINE.
WHAT YOU CAN’T SAY UNLESS YOU’RE
A KID ON A PLAYGROUND, HE DID IT
SO IT’S OKAY FOR ME TO DO IT.
EITHER THERE ARE PRINCIPLES OR
THERE ARE NOT PRINCIPLES.
>> WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS
PERSONAL LAWYER, MR. RUDY
GIULIANI, APPARENTLY TRYING TO
ENLIST UKRAINE IN A NUMBER OF
DIFFERENT EFFORTS, WE’VE BEEN
TALKING ABOUT IT IN THE CONTEXT
OF THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY,
WHICH IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT
TRYING TO EITHER ENGINEER OR DIG
UP SOMETHING THAT WILL HURT JOE
BIDEN, THAT WILL HURT THE
PRESIDENT’S POTENTIAL POLITICAL
OPPONENT IN 2020, BEYOND THAT,
THOUGH, SEEMS LIKE THEY HAVE
BEEN LOOKING FOR A COUPLE OTHER
THINGS.
THINGS. THEY’VE BEEN LOOKING FOR LAW
ENFORCEMENT ACTION AGAINST THE
ACCUSERS OF PAUL MANAFORT,
PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT FORWARD
EVIDENCE OF MANAFORT’S CORRUPT
BEHAVIOR IN UKRAINE THAT ENDED
UP GETTING HIM KICKED OFF THE
PRESIDENT’S CAMPAIGN IN 2016
THAT ULTIMATELY LED TO HIM GOING
TO JAIL WHERE HE SITS TODAY.
THEY’RE TRYING TO UNDO THE
PROSECUTION OF PAUL MANAFORT.
THEY’RE ALSO TRYING TO UNDO THE
INITIAL ATTRIBUTION OF THE 2016
ATTACK TO RUSSIA.
THEY WANT TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE
MAYBE RUSSIA DIDN’T ATTACK US.
WHY IS ALL OF THIS HAPPENING
THROUGH UKRAINE?
THROUGH UKRAINE? >> I’M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT
QUESTION BECAUSE I WANT TO START
JUST BY REMINDING US ALL THAT
UKRAINE IS A REAL COUNTRY.
UKRAINE HAS REAL PROBLEMS.
FOR EXAMPLE, UKRAINE WAS INVADED
BY RUSSIA.
BY RUSSIA. RUSSIA ANNEXED UKRAINIAN
TERRITORY AND HAS TAKEN 12,000
MORTAL CASUALTIES IN THIS WALL
WHICH IS ABOUT AS MUCH AS
VIETNAM FOR US.
AND THE RUSSIAN WAR IN UKRAINE
WAS JUST AS UNEXPECTED.
THIS IS A COUNTRY WITH 2 MILLION
INTERNAL REFUGEES.
INTERNAL REFUGEES. BUT THIS IS A PLACE THAT HELD
DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS THE LAST
ONE AND THIS ONE FREE AND FAIR.
THEY HAVE BIG PROSHZ.
WHAT THEY NEED FROM US IS TO
ENCOURAGE THEM TO FOLLOW THE
RULE OF LAW.
THE TRAGIC THING, AS YOU SAY,
ABOUT WHAT’S HAPPENING NOW IS
THAT WE’RE DOING THE OPPOSITE.
EVERY ASPECT OF WHAT MR.
GIULIANI AND MR. TRUMP ARE DOING
IS PUSHING THEM IN THE WRONG
DIRECTION.
DIRECTION. THEY’RE URGING THE PRESIDENT OF
THE COMPANY TO BE CORRUPT.
THEN THEY’RE SAYING YOUR OLD
PROSECUTOR GENERAL, WHO
EVERYBODY AGREED WAS THE MOST
CORRUPT PERSON IN THE COUNTRY,
HE SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK.
AND THEN YOU’RE INVESTIGATIVE
JOURNALISTS, WHO ARE THE GOOD
GUYS IN THIS STORY, THOSE PEOPLE
ARE ENEMIES OF THE UNITED
STATES, ENEMIES OF AMERICA.
THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE
WHO ACTUALLY FIND OUT THE THINGS
WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT
INEQUALITY, CORRUPTION, AND WAR.
THAT FOR ME IS JUST AWFUL.
>> THE THING THAT IS, I THINK,
AS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS UKRAINE TO
GET THAT LEVEL OF UKRAINE, WHAT
THIS IS GOING TO DO TO THEM AND
VIS-A-VIS WHAT THEY’RE GOING TO
HANDLE IN TERMS OF RUSSIA, IT’S
FASCINATING.
FASCINATING. AND SO THE IDEA THAT THEY’RE
OVER THERE BASICALLY TUNING UP
ALL THE GOOD GUYS AND HELPING
OUT -- TUNING OUT THE GOOD GUYS
AND HELPING THE BAD GUYS, IT’S
HARD FOR ME TO KNOW WHY THERE
AND WHAT IT IS ABOUT UKRAINE
THAT HAS BECOME THEIR PLAYGROUND
IN THIS WAY.
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. I MEAN, THERE ARE A COUPLE
THINGS GOING ON HERE.
FIRST, THEY CORRECTLY HAVE THE
INSTINCT THAT UKRAINE AND
AMERICA AND RUSSIA ARE PART OF
ONE STORY.
ONE STORY. IT’S JUST THEY HAVE IT WRONG
HOW.
HOW. AS RUSSIA WAS INVADING UKRAINE
IN 2014, IT WAS TRYING OUT THE
HYBRID WAR STRATEGIES, THE CYBER
WAR STRATEGIES IT USED IN 2016
AGAINST US.
AGAINST US. IN THAT SENSE, IT IS ALL ONE
STORY AND THE PERSONAL
CONNECTION OF PAUL MANAFORT, WHO
IS THE ADVISER OF BOTH UKRAINIAN
PRESIDENT AND THE AMERICAN
PRESIDENT TO BE WAS THE
EXCLAMATION POINT AT THE END OF
ALL OF THAT.
SO THEY’RE RIGHT IT’S ALL
CONNECTED BUT THEY’RE WRONG
ABOUT HOW.
ABOUT HOW. WHAT THEY’RE SAYING IS, BY THE
WAY, THE SAME THING THAT THE
RUSSIANS ARE SAYING, FOR
EXAMPLE, A RUSSIAN SENATOR SAID
TODAY WHAT THEY’RE SAYING IS
THAT ACTUALLY THE WHOLE THING
WAS UKRAINE HELPING THE
DEMOCRATS, NOT RUSSIA HELPING
THE REPUBLICANS AND MR. TRUMP.
AND THEY’RE TRYING TO BUILD UP
THIS SORT OF COUNTERNARRATIVE
WHICH THEY CAN USE AS A
BOOMERANG TO PUSH THE OTHER ONE
BACK.
BACK. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH
THIS, BUT THE MOST OBVIOUS IS
IT’S JUST NOT TRUE.
THEY HAVE AN INSTINCT.
THEY CAN SNIFF OUT WHO THE WORST
PEOPLE ARE.
PEOPLE ARE. THEY’RE VERY GOOD AT THAT, BUT
THEY DON’T HAVE THEIR FACTS
STRAIGHT ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY
HAPPENED AS THEY DON’T HAVE A
BASIS ON WHICH TO BUILD THIS
ZUCKERKANDEL IF YOU CAN HOLD ON,
PROFESSOR, I WANT TO ASK YOU
ALSO HOW YOU THINK WE’RE DOING
AS A COUNTRY DEALING WITH THIS