>> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE
covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019.
Brought to you by Red Hat.
>> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE
covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019.
Brought to you by Red Hat.
the Cloud Native Computing Foundation
and ecosystem partners.
>> Hola Barcelona I'm Stu Miniman
and my guest host for this week is
the one and only Corey Quinn,
and you're watching theCUBE
the leader in live tech coverage,
actually the fourth year we've been doing
the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon.
This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon Barcelona 2019.
We've got two days of wall to wall live coverage.
Last year we were in Copenhagen
it was outside a little bit windy
and we had this lovely silk above us.
This time we are inside at the Fira.
We've got some lovely Cube branding.
The store with all the t-shirts
and the little plushies of Fippy and all the animals
are right down the row for us,
and there is 7,700 people here.
So I have been, I did the Austin show in 2017
did the Seattle show last year 2018.
We had done the Portland show in 2016,
so it's my third time doing one of these,
but Corey it is your first time at one of these shows.
Wait this isn't an AWF show, so what are you doing here?
>> I'm still trying to figure that out myself
when people invite me to go somewhere
"Do you know anything about insert topic here?"
absolutely, smile and bluff your way through.
Eventually someone might call you on it,
but that's tomorrow's problem not quite today's.
>> Yeah I have this general rule of thumb
the less I know about something
the more I overdress to overcompensate it.
Oh so here's the guy in the three piece suit.
>> My primary skill is wearing a suit
everything else is just edging details.
>> Alright, so let's set the stage
for our audience here Corey.
As I've said we've got the Foundation,
we've got a lot of the big members,
we've got some of the project people,
but I'm really excited
we actually have some excellent users here,
because it is five years now since Kubernetes
came onto the scene of course
built off of Borg from Google,
and as Dan Conn said in the opening key note,
he actually gave a nice historical lesson.
The term he used is simultaneous invention
and basically those things that, you know,
there are times where we argue,
who created the light bulb first,
or who did this and this?
Because there were multiple times out there and he said
look there were more than a dozen projects out there.
>> Many of them open source or a little bit open
as to these things like container orchestration,
but it is Kubernetes that is the defacto standard today,
and it's why so many people show up for this show,
>> and there's such a large ecosystem around it.
So you live in the Cloud world you know
what's your general view on CloudNative and Kubernetes
and this whole kind of space?
>> Well going back to something you said a minute or two ago.
I think there's something very strong to be said
about this being defined by it's users.
I've never yet seen a successful paradigm takeoff
in the world of technology that was vendor defined.
It's at some point you wind up with these companies
doing the digital equivalent of
here we've crafted you this amazingly precise wrench,
and you hand it to a user and the first thing they say
is wow it's kind of a crappy hammer,
but it's at least good for a first attempt.
Tools are going to be used as users want to use them
and they define what the patterns look like.
>> Yeah so I'll give you the counter point there
because we understand if we ask users what they wanted
they wanted better buggy whips so we can go faster.
To compare and contrast we had done a few years ago
was this openstack was user driven
and it came out of NASA,
and if it was good enough for the rocket scientist,
it should be something we that can learn on,
and Rackspace had done good and gave it
to the open source community,
and stepped back and let people use it.
First of all openstack it's not dead
it's being used in the Telco world
it's being used outside of North America quite a bit,
but we saw the kind of boom and bust of that.
>> We are a long way passed the heyday.
>> The vendor ecosystem of openstack was
oh it's an alternative to AWS,
and maybe some way to get off the VMY licensing,
and I've actually said it's funny
if you listen to what happens in this ecosystem.
Well, giving people the flexibility
not to be totally locked in to AWS,
and oh it's built on Linux
and therefore I might not want to have
licensing from certain vendors.
Still echos from previously but it is very different.
>> Very much so,
and I will say the world has changed.
>> I was very involved in Eucalyptus
which was a bit of a different take on the idea,
or the promise of what openstack was going to be
What if you had Cloud API's in your own data center
in 2012 that seemed like a viable concern.
The world we live in today of public cloud first
for a lot of shops was by no means assured.
>> Yeah, Martin Meikos, Cube alum by the way,
fantastic leader still heavily involved in open source.
>> Very much so
>> One of those things I think
he was a little bit ahead of his time on these.
So Corey, one of the reasons, why are you here?
You are here because I pulled you here,
and we do pay you to be here as a host.
You're not here for goodwill and that.
Your customers are all users
and tend to be decent sized users
and they say Corey helps people with their Amazon bills
no that's the AWS bills not the
I have a pile of boxes of smiley faces on there,
oh my God what did I do around Christmas time.
>> Exactly
>> So the discussion at the show is
this whole hybrid and multi cloud world
when I talk to users they don't use those words.
Cloud strategy, sure, my pile of applications,
and how I'm updating some of them,
and keeping some of them running,
and working with that application portfolio and my data.
All hugely important but what do you hear from users,
and where does the things like cloud and multi cloud
fit into their world?
>> There are two basic archetypes of user
that I tend to deal with.
Because I deal with, as you mentioned,
with predominately large customers
>> you have the born in the cloud types
who have more or less a single application.
Picture a startup that hits meteoric growth
and now is approaching or is in the IPO stage.
They have a single application.
They're generally all in on one provider,
and the idea of going multi cloud is for auxiliary things.
If we take a step back, for example,
they're saying things like oh PagerDuty is a service
that's not run by one of our major public cloud providers.
There are a bunch of SaaS applications like that
that factor in, but their infrastructure is
>> predominately going to be based in one environment.
The other large type of customer you'll tend to see
is one of those multinational very divisional organizations
where they have a long legacy
of being very data center first
because historically that was kind of the only option.
And you'll start to see a bunch of different popup cloud
providers inside those environments,
but usually they stop at the line of business boundary
or very occasionally on a per workload basis.
I'm not seeing people say,
>> well we're going to build this one application workload,
and we want to be able to put that on Oracle cloud,
and Azure and GCP and AWS,
and this thing that my cousin runs out of the Ozarks.
No one wants to do that in the traditional sense
because as soon as you go down that path
you are constrained to whatever the
lowest common denominator across all those things are,
and my cousins data center in the Ozarks
doesn't have a lot of frills.
So you wind up trying to be able to deploy anywhere,
but by doing that you are giving up
any higher level offering.
You are slowing yourself down.
>> Yeah, the thing we've always been worried about
is back in the day when you talk about multi vendor
do we go by the standard,
and then go to least common denominator
and what has worked it's way through the environment?
That's what the customers want.
I want today if I'm the user,
agility is really one of the things
that seem to be top of mind.
What IT needs to do is respond to the speed
of what the business needs
and a CloudNative environment that I look at is
it has to be that lever to be able to help me
deliver on the next thing, or change the thing,
or update my thing to get that working.
It was, so disclaimer Red Hat is our headline sponsor here
we thank them for our presence,
but actually it's a great conversation
with open shift customers, and they didn't talk about
open shift to open shift to open shift.
They talk about their digital transformation.
They talk about their data.
They talk about the cool new things
that they are able to do, and it was that platform
happened to be built on Kubernetes.
That was the lever to help them do this
at the Google show where you were at.
That was the same conversation we had
whether it is in GCP
or whether it was in my own data center.
>> You know yes we can do it with containers
and everything like that.
It was that lever to be able to help me modernize
and run new apps and do it faster
than I would've done it in the past.
So it's that kind of progression
that is interesting for me to hear,
and just there is not, there is this tendency now to
be like oh look everybody is working together and
it's wonderful open source ecosystem.
It's like well look the world today
is definitely coopetition.
Yes you need to be up on stage
and if a customer says,
I need to work with vendors A, B, C, and D.
A, B, C, and D, you better work with that
or they will go and find an alternative,
because there are alternatives out there.
>> (Corey) Absolutely, and when a company embarks
on a digital transformation and starts moving
into public cloud, there are two reasons
they are doing that.
The first is for cost savings
in which case (laughs), let's talk, and the other
is for capability storing,
and you're not going to realize cost savings
for a lot longer than you think you will.
In any case you are not going realize capability story
if all you view public cloud is being,
is another place to run your VAMS or now your containers.
>> Yeah, so thank you, Corey your title in your day job
You're a Cloud economist.
>> I am, two words that no one can define.
So no one calls me on it.
>> Kubernetes it's magical and free right
>> That's what everyone tells me.
It feels like right now we are sort of peak heighth
as far as Kubernetes goes,
and increasingly, whenever you see a technology
that has gotten this level of adoption.
We saw it with openstack, we've seen it with cloud,
we've seen it with a bunch of things.
We are starting to see it with Serverless as well.
Where, what problem are you trying to solve?
I'm not going to listen to the answer,
today that answer is Kubernetes,
and it seems like everyone's first project
is their own resume.
Great, there has to be a value proposition,
there has to be a story for it,
>> and I'm not suggesting that there isn't,
but I think that it is being used
as sort of an upscale snake oil in some cases
or serpen grease as we like to call it in some context.
>> Yeah, and that's one of our jobs here
is to help extract the sigma from the noise.
We've got some good customers.
We're going into the environment.
One of the things I try to do in the open keynote
is find that theme.
Couple of years, for a couple of shows
>> it's been service mesh is the new hotness.
We're talking about Istio, we're talking about Helm,
We're talking about all these all these environments
that say okay how do I pull together
all the pieces of the application,
>> and manage that together?
Because there's just, you know, moving up the stack,
and getting closer to that application.
We'll talk about Serverless in one of the other segments
later this week I'm sure because you know there's the,
okay here Knative can help bridge that gap,
but is that what I need?
We talk a lot about Kubernetes is
how much does the public cloud versus in my data center,
and some of the guys they talk to,
Serverless is in the public cloud.
We'll call it functions of the service
if you put it in your own data center,
because while yes there are servers everywhere.
If you actually manage those racks and everything like that
it probably doesn't make sense to call it Serverless.
We try not to get into too many semantics arguments
here on theCUBE.
>> You can generally tend to run arbitrary code anywhere
the premise of Serverless to my mind.
>> Is more about the event model,
and you don't get that on VRAM in the same way
that you do in a large public cloud provider,
and whether that is the right thing or not,
I'm not prepared to say,
but it's important for that to be understood
as you are going down that path.
>> So Corey, any themes that jumped out for you,
or things that you want to poke at, at the show, for me,
Kubernetes has really kind of crossed that Chasm,
and we do have large crowds.
You can see the throngs of people behind us,
and users that have great stories to tell,
and CNCF itself, you know has a lot of projects out there,
we're trying to make some sense of all those pieces.
There's six now that have graduated,
and FluentD is the most recent,
but a lot of interesting things from the sandbox,
through that kind of incubating phase there,
and we're going to dig into some of the pieces there.
Some of them build on top of Kubernetes,
some of them are just part of this whole
Cloud Native Ecosystem,
and therefore related but don't necessarily need it,
and can play in all these various worlds.
>> What about you?
>> For me I want to dig a little bit more
into the idea of multi cloud.
I have been making a bit of a stink for the past year.
With the talk called the myth of multi cloud.
Where it's not something I generally advise
as a best practice,
and I'm holding that fairly well,
but what I want to do is I want to have conversations
with people who are pursuing multi cloud strategies
and figure out first,
are they in fact pursuing the same thing,
so we're defining out terms and talking on the same page,
and secondly I want to get a little more context,
and insight into why they are doing that,
and what that looks like for them.
Is it they want to be able to run different workloads
in different places?
Great that's fair, the same workload run everywhere,
on the lowest common denominator.
Well lets scratch below the surface a bit,
and find out why that is.
>> Yeah, and Corey you're spot on,
and no surprise because you talk to users on this.
From our research side on our team,
we really say multi cloud or hybrid cloud.
Hybrid cloud means you've got your own data centers,
as opposed to multi cloud could be any of them.
There's a little bit of a Venn Diagram
you could do between that.
>> But I am prepared to be wrong as well.
I'm a company of two people.
I don't have a research department,
that's called the spare time I get
>> when I can't sleep at night.
So I don't have data, I have anecadata.
I can talk about individual use cases,
but then I'm telling individual company stories
that I'm generally not authorized to tell.
So it's more a question now of
starting to speak to a broader base.
>> So just to finish on the thought from out team
is everything from I have all of these pieces,
and they're really not connected,
and I'm just trying to get my arms around
through some of the solutions.
Like in the AWS world we're looking at the VMware on AWS,
and the outpost type of solution.
That pullout or what Azure does with Azure stack,
and the like, or even company like IBM and Oracle,
where they have a stack that can be both
>> in the public cloud and the private cloud.
Those kind of fully integrated pieces
versus the right now
I'm just putting applications in certain areas,
and then how do I manage data protection,
how do I manage security across all these environments.
It is a heterogeneous mess that we had,
and I spent a lot of my career
trying to help us break down those silos,
get away from the cylinders of excellence
as we called them, and we worked more traditionalist.
So how much are we fighting that?
I will just tell you that most of the people
we're going to have on theCUBE,
probably aren't going to want to get into that.
They'll be happy to talk about their piece,
and how they work with this broad wonderful ecosystem,
but we can drill into where Kubernetes fits.
We've got the five year anniversary of Kubernetes.
We'll be talking to some of the people
that helped create this technology,
and lots of the various pieces.
So with that, Corey, want to give you the final take here,
before we talk about the stickers, and some of the rest.
>> Oh absolutely, I think it's a fascinating show.
I think that they're the right people who are attending.
To give valuable perspective that, quite frankly,
you're not going to get almost anywhere else.
It's just a fascinating blend of people
from large companies, small companies, giant vendors,
and of course the middleware types,
who are trying to effectively stand between in many cases,
customers and the raw vendors,
for a variety of very good reasons.
Partner strategies are important.
I'm very curious to see what that becomes,
and how that tends to unfold in the next two days.
>> Okay, so theCUBE by the way, we're not only a broadcast,
but we are part of the community.
We understand this network, and that is why
Corey and I, you know, we come with stickers.
So we've got these lovely sticker and partnership
with Women Who Go, that made this logo for us
for the Seattle show,
and I have a few left, so if you come on by.
Corey has his platypus, last week in AWS.
So come on by where we are, you get some stickers,
and of course, hit us up on Twitter
if you have any questions.
We're always looking for the community,
and the network to help us with the data,
and help us pull everything apart.
So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman,
two days of live wall to wall coverage
>> will continue very soon,
and thank you as always for watching theCUBE.
(Fading Electronic Music)