I'm joined by Todd clear who is the dean of the school of criminal justice
at Rutgers University also author of 12 books
including imprisoning communities really great to have you on today
you know we've been talking about incarceration quite a bit on this
program over the years and I've kinda been focusing on three issues and what I
would love to do is tell you what they are
and then you tell me if you think I'm missing some key issues that weren
that I'm not talking about when it comes to incarceration one has been
incarceration in conjunction with the war on drugs
and the disproportionate affect that has on minorities
number two has been how private prisons
including the ownership stakes in them by big Wall Street firms
has furthered unproductive legislation in terms of detention have nonviolent
drug offenders as well as undocumented immigrants
and then three has been solitary confinement and just the disastrous
defect a disastrous effect that it can have
on individuals and really set them up to never again be so-called productive
members of society
to evaluate my coverage ok prisons and tell me
are these important issues what am I missing so that so the drug war is
a key I'm you know in nineteen I'm
I 76 I'm about time
are at three percent %uh that people who are incarcerated
where are you now on drug charges hand about that
I'm less than 10 percent people entering prison came in on drug charges today
it's about a third
and about to happen to people coming to present
and that's all been entirely produced not by changes in drug use been changes
and sentencing in the world and will be sentenced people
will get convicted for possession of drugs I'm
and used to be rare that a person who was a
caught with I'm with a controlled substance went to prison it's now
rule the exception setting that is a key
that private and Prison Industries interesting
I'm but only about 15 percent the prisoners nationally are
in in in some sort of private facility so it's not the main
I'm engine driving incarceration rates incarceration rates are entirely
produced by two numbers how many people go to prison
and how long they stay and we've been increasing the rate of people going to
prison
an increasingly to stay in prison for almost 40 years
I'm and and the private prison
industry had has been a beneficiary a growing prison population has created a
a market but they have not been a driver I'm
now there's been some states that have experimented or
thought about experimenting with large increases in private incarceration like
Arizona
now the enormous mistake you trade a permanent lobby for
going prison populations baton the I'm that really doesn't exist in any
in any me away in the states now they're not that there's
airplane issues are private incarceration that I think we should get
the attention to but
if you're not a main driver mass incarceration I'm
really what has given that no incarceration I'm
I growth United States has been
I'm I'm changes in the way he sends people in nineteen
I'm 72 about three quarters and the people who were convicted about family
doc sentenced to probation her
I today about three-quarters get sentenced to prison
so that's been cut by a third by two-thirds
I'm in 1972 the median went to stay in both senses about that a
15 months it's now about 30 months so you can understand why you have a prison
population that is so much larger even though the crime
rate is about what it was in nineteen seventy-two that's because we send a lot
more people to prison
and make them stay there longer if you had to pick
the specific battle to fight that you think would have the biggest positive
impact on
the kinda status quo of incarceration in the US
is it where it where would you attack if you could only focus on one area
India tough I'll call between changing sensing for people convicted drug crimes
and in the meeting mandatory minimum sentences I'm
both those have contributed their own enormous
peace to the math problem mass incarceration but
to and their related because some a mandatory minimum sentences are
drug crimes but they are targeting II slider
Anna different group that damn you could do something about
I if you said that nobody go to prison for possession of drugs
you would have an impact on a mass incarceration but it would be
a smaller than you would think because people who go to prison for possession
I drugs tend to understate I'll they're not really long
I'm and remember senses on the air white significant because not only are you not
being placed on probation but you also I'm
typically being sensed much longer than the judge ordinarily impose
so mandatory minimums in the federal system for example or 10 20 and 30 years
I'm and if you eliminated I wasn't allowed judicial discretion for choosing
senses
lower than those mandatory minimums you have a significant impact so
be tough call between those 2i take either one of those at you
forced my hand I would I'm say that there is
I'm not a mandatory minimum sense to prison
is I not allowed and if that were always the case that a person could make
I'm at that that you could make a case for community-based
penalty for any person committed any crime I think I'm
or a lesser sentence than that well then what that
law provides maximum require that you have more impact on
a mass incarceration job we went back to the sentencing laws
1980 within a very few years we would have a prison population in nineteen
eighty
if we put aside just for a second the the the disproportionate
application love a are at on minorities
when we look at these mandatory minimums drug crimes we look at higher drug usage
rates among whites but higher incarceration rates for drug usage among
minorities
putting that aside just briefly let's imagine that weren't the problem
I get emails from people on both sides of the political spectrum saying
listen we understand all the this this minority disproportionate
stuff but when you put people in prison
they aren't committing crimes so it is still better for the surrounding
community
is that even true can we even still him even say that accurately
yeah and the answer to that is increasingly it's becoming clear that
that is not our
not about meaningful argument and used to be that a and its
and its and you make sense on the face you block a person up
that person can't commit crimes but there are
two mechanisms that I'm really reduce the
excuse the community ass occasion effective a prison sentence
I one is replacement most crimes that are committed and communities are
committed by young men in group
and I'm if you I incarcerate one person from that grew
you may have no impact on the group's level up criminal activity in other
words never crimes that actually get committed
and what you may do actually is open up a place for someone else to join in
who might have been involved in the criminal networks now become involved
this is
particularly true drug-related crime crimes you don't you like a person for
selling drugs
you don't prevent a single drugs were being sold you just read a job opening
for somebody else there
so drugs I'm and when you do this in turn
in a framework where there are lots of guns you create not only a job
for selling drugs but also you arms and body my car
are so you can see why and this is by the way trooper burglaries many
robberies
lotta part that's a lot of the crimes and crimes that are that we are very
worried about
open environments are are created by are committed by people in groups
and incarcerating individuals doesn't do much about that rate that's how come we
can after
I a six-fold increase in the number people locked up
today as compared to nineteen seventies and yet still have the same primary
we had in nineteen seventies is there some all other intangible detriment that
also takes place because you're breaking families
up in your kind of changing the the social dynamics of the neighborhood
could we say something about that as well
well as the other thing I was going to say that I'm that we now know that
sending a person for small incarceration arms concentrated cell
significantly in a small number communities I so they're
I for example in Chicago two-thirds the people go to prison come from 70 the
neighbors Chicago
that kinda thing in there neighborhoods where the rates are so high
that I as many as 14 that the adult men are locked up on any given day
but the people who are locked change day today so some people are released from
prison comeback in other people
I'm re: reviews you go to prison
I'm what that means is that you have a neighborhood in which I'm
men are not stable us taking part in a bit virus let me just
they are accused just x we know that going to prison
reduces your lifetime earnings by 40 percent with you
come if your child coming from a neighborhood where most men go to
president some time you come from a neighborhood where men
at forty percent last burning power meaning that there's forty percent less
money to spend on you as a child
to for these businesses net community to increase economic activity to make sure
that homes are taken care of
to buy the things that kids need to go to school on or not
we also know that having parents go to prison reduces your chances of being
involved as a child reduces your chances of being involved
on the juvenile justice system a I'm sorry let me say that again
we know that going to prison increases the chances of a child going to juvenile
justice system
by 1/4 so when you have a community in which every
I child is connected to an adult has been to turned to prison you have a
community in which all those children are more vulnerable
to get back to the juvenile justice system being rested
we also know that it would have been increases the chances about
about I'm physical health problems we know it increases the chance
about and I have emotional problems I'm
we know for example that in in nine maybe that's where
I lots of people are cycling in our prison system sexually transmitted
diseases are much better much higher rate because
intimate relationships between men and women have been destabilized
so he at all these things up together you get a situation in which
incarceration policies which are dramatically increase the number people
going to prison for some
inner-city neighborhoods have the impact of making those neighbors less stable
I and and an increasing that level up a
a bit the country contributors to prior criminality Wednesday but that's why you
have
nationally a drop in primary but it's something that is the crime rate stays
very stubbornly high
and it's partly because incarceration is made it hard for those neighborhoods to
develop a kind stable social patterns that really produced
public safety yes I'm not only do we have to look at the kind of cultural and
punitive and
rehabilitative aspects of these prison sentences but there's significant
economic aspects as well over overtime to these neighborhoods
we've been speaking with Todd clear he's the dean of the school of criminal
justice at Rutgers University author of 12 books including imprisoning
communities
really great to speak to you today any here