WE POSSIBLY CAN ON RUSSIA, WHILE
WE'RE STRENGTHENING OUR OWN
DEFENSES.
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE BEEN
DOING.
>> SECRETARY BLINKEN, THANK YOU
FOR COMING ON.
>>> OUR NEXT GUEST MASHA GESSEN
HAS WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT
RUSSIA AND THE RISE OF VLADAMIR
PUTIN, SO IF ANYBODY CAN READ
PUTIN'S MIND, IT MAY BE MASHA
GESSEN.
MASHA, WELCOME BACK TO "MEET THE
PRESS."
>> THANK YOU.
GOOD TO BE HERE, CHUCK.
>> I WANT TO START WITH THE
INTELLIGENCE THE U.S. RELEASED
EARLIER THIS WEEK INDICATING
THAT VLADAMIR PUTIN WAS NOT
GETTING THE TRUTH FROM HIS
ADVISERS.
AND WHILE THAT PORTION OF THE
INTEL SEEMED BELIEVABLE, WHAT'S
NOT BELIEVABLE IS THAT A FORMER
KGB AGENT WOULD SOMEHOW BE IN
THE DARK UNLESS THEY'VE CHOSEN
TO BE IN THE DARK.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE
REPORTS?
>> WELL, VLADAMIR PUTIN WAS
NEVER AN EXTRAORDINARY KGB
AGENT, AND HE HAS BEEN A TYRANT
FOR LONGER THAN HE WAS A KGB
AGENT.
DICTATORS DO TEND TO BECOME
ISOLATED, AND THEY BECOME
ISOLATED NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE
TO BECOME ISOLATED, ALTHOUGH I
THINK THAT HAS HAPPENED WITH
PUTIN AS WELL, BUT BECAUSE THEIR
AIDES ARE AFRAID TO BE
MESSENGERS OF BAD NEWS.
THIS IS CLEARLY WHAT'S HAPPENING
WITH PUTIN.
IT'S NOT NEWS, IT'S BEEN
HAPPENING FOR A LONG TIME, AND
IT'S BEEN EXACERBATED BECAUSE OF
HIS ISOLATION DURING COVID.
BUT, CHUCK, I AGREE WITH YOU
THAT AT THIS POINT, IF PUTIN IS
NOT SEEING THE FOOTAGE FROM
BUCHA, FROM THE OUTSKIRTS OF
KYIV WHERE RETREATING RUSSIAN
TROOPS HAVE LEFT THE BODIES OF
CIVILIANS WITH THEIR HANDS TIED
BEHIND THEIR BACKS LITTERING THE
STREETS WHERE THEY HAVE LEFT
MASS GRAVES OF CIVILIANEDS WITH
THEIR HANDS TIED BEHIND THEIR
BACKS, ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T SEE
THAT FOOTAGE IS CHOOSING NOT TO
SEE IT.
>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT
NEGOTIATING WITH PUTIN, AND IF
PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY CALLED YOU
UP AND ASKED YOU FOR SOME
ADVICE, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?
BEFORE YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION,
I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU WHAT
FORMER UKRANIAN PRESIDENT
POROSHENKO SAID EARLIER THIS
WEEK.
>> PLEASE, DON'T TRUST PUTIN.
I'M THE PRESIDENT WHO HAD
NEGOTIATIONS WITH PUTIN FOR FIVE
YEARS.
HE NEVER KEEPS HIS WORD.
POINT NUMBER TWO, DON'T BE
AFRAID OF PUTIN.
AND POINT NUMBER THREE, UKRAINE,
NEVER GIVE UP AND THE
TOTALITARIAN PART OF UKRAINE
CANNOT BE PART OF ANY
COMPROMISE.
>> FIRST, GOOD ADVICE, AND WHAT
WOULD YOU ADD?
>> EXCELLENT ADVICE.
WHAT I WOULD ADD IS ACTUALLY NOT
ADVICE, IT'S AN OBSERVATION.
PETRO POROSHENKO, THE LAST
PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE AND BEFORE
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY WAS IN A
COUNTRY THAT WAS POLARIZED
BEFORE THE WAR AND WHERE PEOPLE
HAD VASTLY DIFFERENT POSITIONS
IN WHETHER THEY SUPPORTED ONE
ANOTHER.
WHAT YOU SEE IS A COUNTRY THAT
IS ACTUALLY UNITED IN A TRUE
PEOPLE'S WAR, WHAT YOU SEE THE
FORMER PRESIDENT SAY IS EXACTLY
WHAT THE CURRENT PRESIDENT WOULD
SAY AND IS THE ADVICE HE SHOULD
BE FOLLOWING.
>> WHAT SHOULD WE MAKE OF THE
REPORTS OF THE POLLING THAT CAME
OUT, I'M SURE YOU SAW IN THE
LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, THAT
INDICATED PUTIN'S APPROVAL
RATING HAS ACTUALLY GONE UP,
THAT AFTER WHAT APPEARED TO BE
SOME CONSTERNATION ABOUT WHAT HE
WAS DOING, THERE IS A RALLY
AROUND HIM IN EFFECT TAKING
PLACE, AND I'M CURIOUS, IS THIS
BECAUSE THOSE THAT ARE EDUCATED
ARE BAILING THE COUNTRY AND
LEAVING, AND ESSENTIALLY THOSE
THAT ARE LEFT, ALA WHAT HAPPENED
IN VENEZUELA, YOUR CUBAS IN THE
WORLD AND THOSE THAT ARE LEFT
HAVE TO SUPPORT HIM BECAUSE THEY
HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE?
>> RUSSIA AT THIS POINT IS A
TOTALITARIAN SOCIETY.
THAT IS A SOCIETY WHERE THE
REGIME SURVIVES BY TERROR.
IT IS MEANINGLESS AND
IRRESPONSIBLE TO BE CONDUCTING
OPINION POLLING, AND ESPECIALLY
TO BE REPORTING ON OPINION
POLLING IN THAT COUNTRY.
THE QUESTION, DO YOU SUPPORT THE
WAR SHOULD REALLY CONTAIN A
SECOND PART WHICH IS, DO YOU
SUPPORT THE WAR OR WOULD YOU
LIKE TO GO TO PRISON FOR 15
YEARS FOR NOT SUPPORTING THE
WAR, RIGHT?
I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING
IMPORTANT ABOUT TOTALITARIAN
SOCIETIES.
IT'S NOT THAT PEOPLE ARE HIDING
WHAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY THINKING.
IT'S THAT IN CONDITIONS OF
TERROR, PEOPLE CAN'T EVEN FORM
THEIR OWN OPINIONS.
>> AFTER PUTIN, FIRST OF ALL, DO
YOU HAVE OPTIMISM THAT THIS --
YOU KNOW, THE HISTORY,
PARTICULARLY EVEN IN RUSSIA, THE
HISTORY OF OVERREACHING HAS LED
TO THE EVENTUAL DEMISE OF THAT
LEADER THAT OVERREACHED?
DO YOU FORESEE THAT, AND IF SO,
WHAT COULD HAPPEN POST PUTIN?
>> AT THIS POINT, WHEN WE TALK
ABOUT THIS APPARENT MILITARY
FAILURE BRINGING ABOUT THE END
OF PUTIN'S REGIME, WE'RE
ENGAGING IN MAGICAL THINKING.
BUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT, I THINK
THIS IS THE KIND OF
SELF-REASSURING THINKING THAT
GETS US AWAY FROM THINKING ABOUT
WHAT THE UNITED STATES AND THE
REST OF THE WESTERN WORLD HASN'T
DONE TO PREVENT THE KIND OF
CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY THAT WE
HAVE SEEN EVIDENCE OF IN THE
LAST 24 HOURS.
THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT
SUPPORTED CLOSING THE SKIES OVER
UKRAINE.
THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT
PROVIDED MAJOR MILITARY
ASSISTANCE THAT UKRAINE HAS
ASKED FOR, AND WESTERN EUROPE,
AND TO SOME EXTENT THE UNITED
STATES, HAS NOT SEVERED ITS
DEPENDENCE ON RUSSIAN ENERGY
RESOURCES, WHICH IS THE
LIFEBLOOD OF THE REGIME.
>> SO WHAT YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY
SAYING IS UNTIL ALL THAT
HAPPENS, LET'S NOT FANTASIZE
ABOUT THE END OF PUTIN?
>> I THINK I'M SAYING LET'S NOT
FANTASIZE ABOUT THE END OF PUTIN
AND ALSO LET'S PAY ATTENTION TO
THE WEST'S RESPONSIBILITY TO
UKRAINIANS WHO ARE DYING RIGHT
NOW INSTEAD OF FANTASIZING ABOUT
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN RUSSIA
AFTER IT'S OVER.
>> MASHA GESSEN, AGAIN, SOMEBODY
WHO LITERALLY WROTE THE BOOK ON