JUSTICE IS NOT ALL ONE BIG THING.
THING. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS
DIVIDED INTO OFFICES AND
DIVISIONS, CIVIL RIGHTS
DIVISION, CRIMINAL DIVISION,
ANTITRUST DIVISION, TAX
DIVISION.
DIVISION. THERE’S ALSO THE NATIONAL
SECURITY DIVISION WHICH ITSELF
CONTAINS A SECTION ON COUNTER
INTELLIGENCE AND THEY WORK ON
ALL KINDS OF FRIGHTENING AND
DELICATE AND CRITICAL CASES.
IN DECEMBER 2014, THEY GOT A NEW
BOSS, A MAN NAMED DAVID LAUFMAN.
HE DECIDED THAT PEOPLE ACTING IN
THIS COUNTRY AS PAID AGENTS OF
FOREIGN COUNTRIES WITHOUT
REGISTERING AS SUCH.
THAT WAS A REAL MATTER OF
NATIONAL SECURITY AND HE WOULD
ORIENT THE DIVISION TO START
DOING MORE ABOUT THAT.
AND THAT’S INTERESTING AS A
MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY LAW
AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
PRIORITIES.
PRIORITIES. UNREGISTERED FOREIGN AGENTS IS
SOMETHING SORT OF BEING KICKED
UPSTAIRS IN TERMS OF WHO CARES
ABOUT IT, AND HOW MUCH THE
DEPARTMENT FOCUSES ON IT.
IT’S INTERESTING.
IT’S INTERESTING. BUT THEN CAME THE ELECTION OF
2016 AND SUDDENLY IT MATTERED TO
ALL OF US, A VERY GREAT DEAL TO
KNOW WHO HAD BEEN SECRETLY
WORKING FOR ANOTHER GOVERNMENT.
SOME OF THE CASES WE THINK OF AS
BEGINNING WITH THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL GREW FROM WORK THAT
BEGAN UNDER DAVID LAUFMAN, AS
THE HEAD OF COUNTER INTELLIGENCE
AT DOJ, DAVID LAUFMAN HAD AN
OVERSIGHT ROLE IN THE RUSSIA
INVESTIGATION BEFORE THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL TOOK OVER.
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTS
THAT THE FBI OPENED A COUNTER
INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATION INTO
THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF EARLY IN
HIS ADMINISTRATION AFTER HE
FIRED JAMES COMEY, THAT COUNTER
INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATION IN
BLUNT TERMS LOOKING TO ASSESS
WHETHER THE PRESIDENT WAS
WORKING ON BEHALF OF A FOREIGN
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. ABOUT A YEAR AGO, IN FEBRUARY
2018, DAVID LAUFMAN LEFT THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. HE LEFT ON HIS OWN TERMS.
HE LEFT UNDER HIS OWN STEAM.
I HAVE MET HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES
SINCE THEN AND SPOKE WITH HIM ON
THIS SHOW, SO I KNOW HOW CAREFUL
HE IS, AND HOW CLOSELY HE KEEPS
HIS OWN COUNSEL BUT WHEN THE
"WASHINGTON POST" THIS WEEKEND
ON SATURDAY REPORTED HOT ON THE
HEELS OF THAT "NEW YORK TIMES"
REPORTING ABOUT THE COUNTER
INTELLIGENCE THING, WHEN THE
"WASHINGTON POST" REPORTED ON
SATURDAY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS
REPEATEDLY GONE TO EXTRAORDINARY
LENGTHS TO HIDE DETAILS OF HIS
CONVERSATIONS WITH VLADIMIR
PUTIN, WHEN THE POST PUBLISHED
THAT THIS WEEKEND, DAVID LAUFMAN
DID SOMETHING I DID NOT EXPECT,
HE SAID OUT LOUD AND FOR THE
WHOLE WORLD QUOTE NOW IS THE
TIME FOR ALL GOOD MEN AND WOMEN
TO COME TO THE AIDE OF THEIR
COUNTRY.
COUNTRY. I DID NOT EXPECT THAT AND IT PUT
A SHIVER DOWN MY SUNSHINE.
JOINING US FOR THE INTERVIEW
TONIGHT IS DAVID LAUFMAN FORMER
CHIEF OF JUSTICE DEPARTMENT’S
EXPERT CONTROL.
EXPERT CONTROL. APPRECIATE YOU MAKING THE TRIP.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> WHAT ABOUT "THE WASHINGTON
POST" PROMPTED YOU TO WRITE
THAT.
THAT. >> IT WAS A TIPPING POINT, AMONG
THE DATA POINTS WE’RE FAMILIAR
WITH THROUGH THE PUBLIC ACTIONS
OF THE SPECIAL COUNSEL, OTHER
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING.
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING. I SPENT 25 YEARS IN PUBLIC
SERVICE, MOSTLY IN THE NATIONAL
SECURITY SPACE AND I FEEL I HAVE
A MORAL OBLIGATION TO SPEAK UP
WHEN I SEE ACTION TAKEN BY THE
PRESIDENT OR THE MEMBERS OF THE
ADMINISTRATION THAT IN MY
JUDGMENT UNDERMINE THE NATIONAL
SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES,
THE NOTION THAT THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE
TRYING TO CONCEAL DETAILS OF
CONVERSATIONS WITH A LEADER OF
OUR PRINCIPLE FOREIGN ADVERSARY
WAS POSITIVELY CHILLING.
>> YOU SAY IT WAS CHILLING
LEARNING THAT IN THE "WASHINGTON
POST," WHAT THE "WASHINGTON
POST" REPORTED THIS WEEKEND, DID
YOU KNOW THAT BEFORE YOU READ IT
IN THE POST THIS WEEKEND?
>> I CAN’T REMEMBER WHAT I, YOU
KNOW, WAS CERTAIN ABOUT, WITH
RESPECT TO THE PRESIDENT’S
PERSONAL MEETINGS WITH FOREIGN
LEADERS, THAT’S NOT THE SORT OF
INFORMATION THAT WOULD NORMALLY
COME TO THE COMPONENT I LED IN
THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME
UNDERSTANDING IN OTHER
DEPARTMENT ALGTGENCIES, OTHER
DEPARTMENTAL AGENCIES.
DEPARTMENTAL AGENCIES. >> WHEN YOU DESCRIBE THE
PRESIDENT AS ACTING IN A WAY
THAT THE COUNTER TO THE NATIONAL
SECURITY INTEREST OF THE UNITED
STATES, THOSE OF US WHO DON’T
THINK OF THIS IN LEGALISTIC
TERMS, THOSE OF US WHO ARE
CIVILIANS TRYING TO MAKE SENSE
OF THIS MOMENT IN HISTORY AND
THINKING ABOUT OUR OWN
RESPONSIBILITY WHICH YOU’RE
CALLING US TO THINK ABOUT HERE,
DO YOU MEAN IN BLUNT TERMS THAT
THE CONTINUING EXISTENCE OF THIS
PRESIDENCY IS A THREAT TO THE
NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED
STATES?
STATES? DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT IS
THAT KIND OF A THREAT?
>> I THINK THERE’S A CULMINATION
OF THINGS WE CAN POINT TO IN THE
PUBLIC RECORD NOW, THE
UNBELIEVABLE ACQUIESCENCE TO
VLADIMIR PUTIN IN HELDSINKI THAT
WAS SHOCKING TO THOSE OF US WHO
WORKED IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY,
ALL OF THE CHARGING DOCUMENTS,
PEOPLE ASSOCIATED WITH THE
PRESIDENT, ALL OF THOSE POINT TO
A REASONABLE INFERENCE AND IT’S
A PAINFUL ANGUISHING THING TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES IS A CLEAR
AND PRESENT DANGER TO THE
NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED
STATES AND THAT IS WHY IN MY OWN
SMALL WAY AND I’M JUST ONE VOICE
AMONG MANY, I FELT THE NEED TO
ISSUE A KIND OF SMALL CRY OR
CALL TO ACTION IN THE TWEET THAT
I ISSUED LAST NIGHT HOPING THAT
IT WILL IMPEL MEMBERS OF
CONGRESS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
AISLE, MEMBERS OF THIS
ADMINISTRATION, AND AMERICAN
CITIZENS IN THEIR OWN
COMMUNITIES WHO CAN MOBILIZE AND
EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS TO BRING
ABOUT ADDITIONAL ACCOUNTABILITY
FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION IN
MATTERS THAT ARE DETRIMENTAL TO
OUR COUNTRY’S INTERESTS, AND
IT’S NOT JUST IN THE TYPICAL
CLATSZ
CLATSZ CLASSIC NATIONAL FIELD, OUR
ABILITY TO PROJECT MILITARY
STRENGTH ABROAD OR PROMOTE
RELATIONS WITH OUR ALLIES OR
ADVERSARIES, NATIONAL SECURITY
BEGINS AT HOME AND THE POSITION
THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN ON
DOMESTIC PUBLIC POLICY ISSUES,
THE DIVISIVENESS IT HAS STRUCK
WITH RESPECT TO DIVIDING US AS A
PEOPLE, UNDERMINING THE
COHESIVENESS AS A PEOPLE, THAT
WEAKENS US AS A NATION AND THAT
MAKES US MORE VULNERABLE TO OUR
ENEMIES.
ENEMIES. >> WHAT IS THE KIND OF THING
THAT YOU’RE CALLING ON REGULAR
AMERICANS TO DO.
OBVIOUSLY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS
HAVE SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITIES IN
A CASE LIKE THIS, THE
CONSTITUTION GIVES THEM THOSE
RESPONSIBILITIES, BUT REGULAR
CITIZENS, HOW ARE YOU ASKING
PEOPLE TO STEP UP?
>> I THINK REGULAR CITIZENS CAN
OPERATE WITHIN THE CONTOURS OF
THEIR CIVIC ASSOCIATIONS,
HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS, CIVIC
ASSOCIATIONS, NONPROFIT
ASSOCIATIONS, NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS, TO MOBILIZE AND
COMMUNICATE WITH MEMBERS OF
CONGRESS, SOCIAL MEDIA, THEY
HAVE UNBELIEVABLE PLATFORMS NOW
FOR EXPRESSING THEMSELVES,
POLLING DATA MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
IT IS TRULY A CALL TO ARMS IN A
NONLETHAL VIOLENT SENSE TO
EXPRESS AS A PEOPLE WHAT WE
THINK ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON AT
THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF
GOVERNMENT, AND NOW IS THE TIME
TO DO THAT.
>> DAVID LAUFMAN IS THE FORMER
CHIEF OF THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT’S COUNTER
DEPARTMENT’S COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERT CONTROL
SESSION.
SESSION. I HAVE A COUPLE OF OTHER MATTERS