AND GENERAL BARRY MCCAFFREY AS
A RETIRED FORCE GENERAL, AND
MSNBC NATIONAL SECURITY
COMMENTATOR.
THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR
BEING WITH US.
GENERAL, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY
TELLING AMERICAN LAWMAKERS
EARLIER TODAY THAT UKRAINE
URGENTLY NEEDS MORE ASSISTANCE
FROM THE U.S..
THERE IS REPORTING OUT THAT
COUNTRIES LIKE POLAND MAYBE
WORKING OUT DEALS TO GET
RUSSIAN MADE JETS INTO
UKRAINIAN HANDS.
YOUR THOUGHTS?
>> WELL, WE PUT SEVERAL BILLION
DOLLARS WORTH OF EQUIPMENT INTO
THEIR HANDS OVER THE LAST
SEVERAL YEARS.
FORTUNATELY, THE POLISH BORDER,
AND MAYBE THE HUNGARIAN BORDER,
THERE ARE STILL OPEN TO SMART
MUNITIONS, STINGER, JAVELIN,
POSSIBLY ARMED DRONES.
I THINK THAT THE AIRCRAFT IS
NOT GONNA BE SIGNIFICANT.
YOU KNOW, WE GET, 20, 30, 40
HOLDERS AND THERE.
THERE ARE A BASIS UNDER ATTACK.
THIS IS A GROUND INVASION.
200,000 TROOPS.
THE UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING
BRAVELY.
WHAT THEY REALLY WANT IS AN AIR
TAP THE TURNS INTO A GROUND
ATTACK FORCE.
IF U.S. AIR FORCE, AFTER
RUSSIAN GROUND FORCES, AND CALM
TARGETS ARE NOW PRESENTING, IT
WOULD BE A TOTAL, IMMEDIATE
GAME-CHANGER.
THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
IT WOULD IMMEDIATELY MEAN WAR
WITH RUSSIA, AND PRESIDENT
BIDEN, I THINK, CORRECTLY IS
NOT GOING TO GO THAT ROUTE.
>> COLONEL, DO YOU AGREE FROM
THE GENERALS ASSESSMENT THERE?
>> OH, YEAH, LOOK, THERE IS NO
POLITICAL WELL FROM INSIDE THE
UNITED STATES FOR WAR WITH
RUSSIA.
AND THAT WOULD GENERALLY
ENGENDER AN EXCHANGE OF NUCLEAR
WEAPONS.
NOBODY WANTS ANY OF THIS.
THE RESULT IS THAT THE WAR ON
THE GROUND WILL HAVE TO
CONTINUE, AND WE'RE GONNA HAVE
TO DO AS GOOD AS JOB AS WE
POSSIBLY CAN, TO GIVE TO THE
UKRAINIANS WHATEVER NEED.
ANY TANK WEAPONS, MORE OF THOSE,
ANY AIRCRAFT WEAPONS,
AMMUNITIONS, SMALL ARMS,
AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.
AND FOOD.
THE THING TO KEEP OUR MIND ON
IS THE FACT THAT IF THE RUSSIAN
FORCES, FROM THE NORTH, LINK UP
TO THOSE FROM THE SOUTH,
THEY'RE GONNA CUT OFF THE
UKRAINIAN ARMY THAT IS IN THE
EAST.
AND THEN, ALL THE REFUGEES WHO
ARE THERE ARE GONNA GET OFF AS
WELL.
IN ANY CASE, THEY'RE GONNA BE
TWO TO 4 MILLION REFUGEES
STREAMING OVER TO THE WEST.
WHICH IS A DISASTER, AND ITS
OWN RIGHT.
THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE TO KEEP
OUR MIND ON.
THE RUSSIANS ARE WORKING VERY,
VERY HARD TO CUT UKRAINE OFF
FROM THE BLACK SEA.
TO CUT THEM OFF FROM THE SEA OF
AZOV, AND IF THE RUSSIANS KEEP
MOVING TO THE WEST ALONG THE
SHORELINE, THE ONLY WAY THAT
THE WEST IS GONNA BE ABLE TO
SEND SUPPLIES, FOOD, AMMUNITION
AND SO ON, TO THE UKRAINIANS,
IT'S GONNA BE A NARROW STRIP OF
LAND BETWEEN MOLDOVA AND THE
BLACK SEA.
AND THAT IS LIKELY TO CLOSE UP,
ALICIA.
>> GENERAL, CAN WE BRING BACK
UP THE MAP, BECAUSE I WANT OUR
VIEWERS TO BE ABLE TO SEE WHAT
IS IT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE
ARMY IN THE NORTH, MEETING THE
ARMY IN THE SOUTH.
THE WEST IS WHERE MOST OF OUR
REPORTING IS COMING FROM, RIGHT?
WE KEEP GOING BACK TO CAL PERRY
IN LVIV.
THAT IS WHERE WE ARE SEEING AN
OUTPOUR OF REFUGEES INTO
POLAND.
GENERAL, WHAT HAPPENS IF PUTIN
DECIDES TO TRAIN HIS ATTENTION
ON THE WESTERN PART OF THIS
COUNTRY?
>> EVENTUALLY, LOOK AT THEIR.
PERSONALLY, ALICIA, I THINK
THIS THING WILL BE LARGELY
WRAPPED UP IN 30 TO 90 DAYS,
MAYBE EVEN QUICKER.
THE ACTUAL POINT OF THE
DECISION WILL BE THIS GIANT
CITY OF KYIV.
3 MILLION PEOPLE MOST OF THEM
CIVILIANS NOW, HUDDLED IN
BASEMENTS.
THEY'RE GETTING HUNGRY.
THEY'RE GONNA FLIP OFF THE
ELECTRICAL GRID, TURN OFF THE
WATER.
THE RUSSIANS WILL BE FIRING
THOUSANDS OF ARTILLERY ROUNDS A
DAY, NOT 30 OR 40 CRUISE
MISSILES, OR BALLISTIC
MISSILES.
IT WILL GET MISERABLE RAPIDLY.
THOSE UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS WILL
HAVE ALL THE ADVANTAGES, IF
THEY FIGHT BLOCK BY BLOCK.
BUT IT WOULD BE DEVASTATING ON
THE CIVIL POPULATION.
SO IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT
AT SOME POINT, PRESIDENT
ZELENSKYY'S GONNA SAY, LET'S
WITHDRAW TO THE WEST, OR THE
CLEAR AND OPEN WAR.
>> GENERAL, YOU'VE BEEN
INVOLVED IN THE EXACT TYPE OF
COMBAT THAT THE GENERAL WAS
DETAILING THERE.
WHAT CAN PEOPLE IN UKRAINIAN
CITIES EXPECT IN THE COMING
DAYS AND WEEKS?
>> WELL, TO CONTINUED
BOMBARDMENT, AS GENERAL
MCCAFFREY SAYS, AND HE'S
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT HOW
DIFFICULT IT'S GONNA BE FOR THE
RUSSIANS TO ATTACK, IN A CITY
THAT'S TURNED INTO COMPLETE
RUBBLE.
AND NOBODY KNOWS THAT BETTER
THAN THE RUSSIANS THEMSELVES,
WHO OPPOSE THE NAZIS IN
STALINGRAD, WITH THE RUSSIANS
BACK AGAINST THE RIVER.
AND ONE OF THE REASONS THAT
QUESTIONS WERE SUCCESSFUL, IS
BECAUSE THE CITY HAVE BEEN
TURNED INTO RUBBLE.
IT IS REALLY HARD TO ATTACK IN
A SITUATION LIKE THAT, BUT IT'S
HEARTBREAKING TO WATCH WHAT'S
TAKING PLACE INSIDE UKRAINE
WITH ITS CITIZENS, AND IT'S
GONNA BE MORE DIFFICULT TO