(bright music)
>> We're here with Steve Mullaney,
the President and CEO of Aviatrix.
Steve, John and I started this whole super cloud narrative
as a way to describe that something different is happening,
specifically within the AWS ecosystem,
but more broadly, across the cloud landscape.
At re:Invent last year, you and I spoke on The Cube,
and you said one of your investors,
a guy named Nick Sturiale,
said to you at the show, "it's happening."
Steve, welcome to The Cube. >> Yeah.
What's happening? What did Nick mean by that?
>> Yeah, we were just getting ready to go on,
and I leaned over, and he looked at me,
and he whispered it in my ear and said, "it's happening."
And he said it just like that.
And you're right, it was kind of funny,
and we talked about that.
And what he means is enterprises, you know, this is why
I went to Aviatrix three and a half years ago,
is the flip switch for enterprises.
And they said, "now we mean it."
We've been talking about cloud for 12 years or 15 years.
Now we mean it. We are digitally transforming.
The movement to cloud is going to make that happen.
And, oh, by the way, of course it's multi-cloud,
because enterprises put workloads where they run best,
where they have the best security,
the best performance, the best cost.
And the business is driving this transformation,
and they decide that "I'm going to use Azure."
And another business unit decides "I'm using Google."
And another one says, "I'm using AWS."
And so of course it's going to be multi-cloud.
And I think we're going to start seeing actual
multi-cloud applications once that infrastructure,
and, you know, you call it the super cloud.
Once that starts getting built,
developers are going to go,
"Wait a minute.
So I can pick this feature from Google, and
and that service from Azure, and that service
from AWS?
Easily? Without any hesitation?"
Once that happens they're going to start really developing.
Today, there aren't multi-cloud applications,
but the, what's happening,
is the enterprise embracing public cloud.
They're using multiple clouds.
Many of them call it four plus one, right?
They're four different public clouds,
plus what they have on prem.
That to me, is what's happening.
I am now re-architecting my enterprise infrastructure,
from applications all the way down to the network,
and I am embracing public clouds in that process.
>> So, I mean, you nailed so many things in there.
I mean, digitally transforming to me
this is the digital transformation.
It's a leveraging embracing the CapEx
from the hyper scalers.
Now, you know, people in the industry,
we're not trying to do what Gartner does
and create a new category per se,
but we do use super cloud as a metaphor.
So, I don't expect necessarily vendors to use it
or not, but and I get that.
But when you talk about multi-cloud,
what specifically is new?
In other words, you touched on some of this stuff.
What constitutes a modern multi-cloud,
or what we would call a super cloud, you know,
network architecture.
What are the salient attributes?
>> Yeah, I would say today,
so two years ago there was no such thing even
as multiple clouds.
It was AWS. Let's be clear.
Everything was AWS.
And for people to even back then two, three years ago,
to even envision that there would be anything else other
than AWS, people couldn't even envision.
Now people kind of go, yeah, that was dumb.
We now see that we're going to use multiple clouds.
We're going to use Azure,
and we're going to use GCP, and we're going to use this.
And yes, we're going to use Oracle.
And even Ali cloud.
We're going to use five or four or five
different public clouds.
But that would be, I think of as, multiple clouds.
But from an IT perspective, they need to be able to
support all those clouds in these shared services,
and what they're going to do.
I actually think we're starting,
and you may have hit on something
in the super cloud, or I know you've talked
about meta cloud, that that's got bad connotations
for (laughs) Facebook. >> Yeah, right.
>> And everybody's like (Dave laughing)
no, please not another Meta thing.
But there is that concept of this abstracted layer above,
you know, riding, we call it, you know, altitude, you know,
Aviatrix, everything.
You know, riding above the clouds, right?
That common, abstracted layer.
This application infrastructure that runs the application,
that rides above all the different public clouds.
And I think once we do that,
you know, Dave, what's going to happen is, I think really
what's going to happen is you're going to start seeing
these multi-cloud applications,
which to my knowledge really doesn't exist today.
I think that might be the next phase.
And in order for that to happen, you have to have all
of the infrastructure be multi-cloud.
Meaning not just networking and network security
from Aviatrix, but you need Snowflake.
You need HashiCorp.
You need Datadog.
You need all the new horsemen
of the new multi-cloud, which isn't the old guys, right?
This is all new people.
Aviatrix, Hashi, Snowflake, Datadog, you name it,
that are going to be able to deliver
all this multi-cloud, cross cloud, wherever you want to
talk about it, such that application development
and deployment can happen seamlessly
and frictionlessly across multi-cloud.
Once that happens, the entire stack,
then you're going to start seeing.
And that to me starts enabling this, what you guys call,
you know, the super cloud, the meta cloud,
the whatever cloud.
But that then rides above all the individual clouds.
That's going to start getting a whole new realm
of application development in my mind.
>> So we got some work to do,
to do some basic blocking and tackling.
Then the application developers can really build
on top of that.
>> Yep
>> So, some of the skeptics
on this topic would ask,
oh how do you envision this changing networking,
versus it just being a bolt-on
to existing fossilized network infrastructure.
In other words, >> Yeah.
how do we get from point A, where we are today,
to point B, you know, the so called networking nirvana.
>> Yeah.
>> So we can actually build those super cloud applications.
>> So, yeah. So you know what it is?
It's interesting because it goes back to my background
at Nicira.
And what we used to talk about, then.
It isn't about managing complexity,
it's about creating simplicity.
It's very different.
And when you put the intelligence into the software, right?
This is what computer science is all about.
We're turning networking into computer science.
When you create an abstraction layer,
we are not just an overlay, Dave.
We actually integrate
in with the native services of the cloud.
We are not managing the complexity of these multi-clouds.
We are using it,
you know, controlling the native constructs,
adding our own intelligence to this,
and then creating what is basically simplification
for the people above it.
So we're simplifying things,
not just managing the complexity.
That's how you get the agility for cloud.
That's how you get to be able to do this.
Because if all you are is a veneer
on top of complexity, you're just hiding complexity.
You're not creating simplicity.
And what happens is, it actually, probably gets more complex
because if all you're doing is hiding the bad stuff
you're not getting rid of it.
>> I love that.
>> And that, and as a layer, >> I love that, Steve.
we're doing that at the networking
and network security layer, you're going to see Snowflake
and Datadog and other people do it at their layers.
>> I, you know, it reminds me of a conversation I had with
Cause, that one of the founders of Pure Storage,
who's all about simplicity, this idea
of creating simplicity versus like you said, just creating,
you know, a way to handle the complexity.
I compare, you know, pure storage
with the sort of old legacy EMC storage devices.
And that's what you had.
You had, you had EMC managing the complexity
and Pure Storage disrupting by creating simplicity.
So what are the challenges of creating that simplicity
and delivering that seamless experience,
that continuous experience across cloud?
Is it engineering?
Is it mindset?
Is it culture?
Is it technology?
What is it?
>> Well, I mean, look at, look,
you see the recession that we're hitting.
You see, there is a significant problem that we have
in the general IT industry right now.
And it's called skills gap, skills shortage.
Two problems.
We don't have enough people,
and we don't have enough people that know cloud.
And the reason is, everybody on the same Tuesday,
three and a half years ago all said now,
I mean it, I'm moving to cloud.
We are a technology company.
We don't make sneakers anymore.
We don't make beer.
We're a technology company and we are going to
digitally transform, or we're going to move to cloud.
Guess what?
Three years ago there were probably seven people
that understood cloud.
Now, everyone on the same Tuesday morning,
all decides to try to hire those same seven people.
There's just not enough people around.
So you're going to need software.
And you're going to have to put the intelligence
into the software,
because you're not going to be able to
a. hire those people
and b. even if you hired 'em, you can't keep 'em.
As soon as they learn cloud, guess what happens, Dave?
(whistles) They're off. >> Yeah.
They're onto the next job at the next highest bidder.
So how are you going to handle that?
You have to have software, that intelligent software,
that is going to simplify things for you.
We have people managing
massive multi-cloud network
and network security people
with two people.
OnPrem, they got hundreds, right?
It's not about taking that complex model
that it had on prem, and jam it into the cloud.
You don't have the people to do it.
And you're not going to get the people to do it.
>> You know, I want to ask you >> Yeah.
>> So I want to ask you about the go to market challenges,
because we, our industry gets a bad rep for selling.
We're really good at selling and then,
but actually delivering what we sell,
sometimes we fall down there.
So, so I, I love Tom Sweet, CFO of Dell.
He talks about the say/do ratio,
how that's actually going to be low, but, you know,
but you know what I mean. >> Yeah.
>> The math, the fraction guy, right?
So, but do what you say you're going to do.
Are there specific go to market challenges related
to this type of cross cloud selling where you can set,
you have to set the customer's expectations,
'cause what you're describing is not going to happen overnight.
It's a journey.
But how do you handle that go to market challenge
in terms of setting those customer expectations
and actually delivering what you say you can sell,
and selling enough to actually have a successful business?
>> Um, so, I think everything's outside in.
So, I think, what really is exciting to me
about this
cloud computing model, the transformation
that we're going through
is - it is business led.
And it is led by the CEO and it is led
by the business units.
They run the business.
It is all about agility.
It is about enabling my developers.
And it's all about driving the business.
Market share, revenue, all these kind of things.
You know, the last transformation of mainframe
on to PC client server was led by the technologists.
It wasn't led by the business.
And it wasn't, it was really hard to tie that
to the business.
So, and then, so this is great
because we can look at the initiatives.
You can look
at the initiatives
of the CEO
in your company.
And now, as an IT person,
you can tie to that.
And they're going to have two or three
or four initiatives, and you can actually map it to that.
So that's where we start, is let's look at what
your CEO cares about.
He cares about this.
He cares about that.
He cares about driving revenue.
He cares about agility, of getting new applications
out to the market sooner to get more revenue.
There's this, and oh, by the way,
transforming your infrastructure to the cloud
is number one thing.
So it's all about agility.
So guess what?
You need to be able to respond to that. Immediately.
Because tomorrow the business is going to go to you
and say, great news, Dave, we're moving to GCP.
W-wait, what?
No one told me about that. (Dave laughing)
Well, we're telling you now,
and you need to be ready tomorrow.
And if you're sitting there,
and you're tied to the low level constructs,
and all you know is AWS, well, I don't have those people.
And even if I could hire 'em, I'm not allowed to,
'cause I can't hire anybody.
How am I going to respond to the business
and the needs of the business?
Now, all of a sudden,
I'm in the way, as the infrastructure team,
of the CEO's goals, because we decided we need
to get the AI capabilities of GCP, and we're moving to GCP.
Or I just did a big deal with GCP
and miraculously, they said I need to run on GCP.
Right? I did a big deal with Google, right?
Guess what comes along with that?
Oh, you're moving to GCP.
Great. The business says we're moving to GCP.
And the IT guys are sitting there going,
well no one told me.
Well, sorry.
So, it's all about agility.
It's all about the - and complexity is the killer
to agility.
This is all about (indistinct) agility.
They're going to come to you and say,
we just acquired a company.
We need to integrate 'em.
Oh, but they got, they use the same IP address ranges we do.
There's overlapping IPs.
And oh, by the way, they're in a different cloud.
How do I do that?
No one cares. Business doesn't care.
They're like me, they're very impatient.
Get it done, or we'll find someone who will.
>> Yeah.
>> So you got to get ahead of that.
And so when we, in terms of, when we talk to customers,
that's what we do.
This isn't just about defenses.
This is about making you get promoted,
making you do good for your company,
such that you can respond to that,
and maybe even enable the company to go do that.
Like we're going to enable people to do true multi-cloud
applications because the infrastructure has to come first.
Right?
You put the foundation in your big skyscraper,
like The Pru behind me,
and the plumbing before you start building the floors.
Right? >> Right.
>> So infrastructure comes first,
then comes the applications.
>> Yeah. So, you know, again, some people call it super cloud
like us.
Multicloud 2.0.
But the real mega trend that I see, Steve,
and I'd love you to bottom line this and bring us home,
is, you know,
Andreessen's "all companies are software companies."
It's like version 2.0 of that.
And the applications that are going to be built on.
There's tie in to the digital transformations.
It's Goldman, it's JPMC, it's Walmart.
It's Capital One, BofA.
Oracle's acquisition of Cerner is going to be
really interesting to see these super clouds
form within industries bringing their data, their tooling,
and their specific software expertise built
on top of that hyper scale infrastructure,
and infrastructure for companies like yours.
So bottom line is, Steve,
what's the future of cloud?
How do you see it?
>> The future is n plus one.
So, two years ago people had
one plus one.
What I had on prem and then what I had in AWS.
They today, if you talk to an enterprise,
they'll have what they call four plus one, right?
Which is four public clouds, plus what I have on prem.
It's going to n plus one, right?
And what's going to happen is exactly what you said.
You're going to have industry clouds.
You're going to, the, the multi-cloud aspect
of it is going to end.
It's not going to go from four to one.
Some people think, oh, it's not going to be four.
It's going down to one or two. BS.
It's going to N.
It's going to a lot.
As they start extending to the edge
and they start integrating out
to the branch offices, it's not going to be
about that branch office, or that edge IoT,
or edge computing, or data centers or campus
connecting into the cloud.
It's going be the other way around.
The cloud is going to extend to those areas.
And you're going to have AI clouds.
You know, whether it's, you know,
Ulta Beauty, was a customer of ours,
who's starting to roll out AR and VR
out to their retail stores to show, you know,
makeup and this, that, and the other thing.
These are new applications.
Transformations are always driven
by new applications that don't exist.
This isn't about lift and shift
of the existing applications.
The 10x tam in this market,
it's going to become all the new things.
That's where the explosion is going to happen.
And you're going to see N level.
Those branch offices are going to look like clouds,
and they're going to need to be stitched together,
and treated like one infrastructure.
So it's going to go from four plus one to N plus one.
And that's what you're going to want as an enterprise.
>> Hm. >> We're going to want N clouds.
So we're going to see an explosion, Dave.
It's not going to be four, it's going to be N.
Now at the end, underneath all of that, we'll be leveraging
and effectively commoditizing the existing CSPs.
>> Yeah.
>> But you're going to have an explosion
of people commoditizing them.
>> It's -
>> And just like the Goldmans
and the industry clouds are going to do.
They're not going to build their own IaaS.
Right? >> No way
>> No way. So that's what's going to happen.
>> It's going to be a 10x on what we saw last decade
with SaaS. >> Yep.
>> It's all going to happen around clouds and super clouds.
Steve Mullaney, thanks so much for coming back on The Cube,
and helping us sort of formulate this thinking.
>> I mean, it really started - >> Yeah.
with you, and myself, and John, and Nick,
and really trying to think this through
and watching this unfold before our eyes.
So, great to have you back. Thank you.
>> Yeah. It's fun.
Thanks for having me.
>> All right. You're welcome.
And keep it right there for more action from Supercloud 22.
Be right back.
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