>>> JAMES BALDWIN ONCE SAID NO
ONE WAS WHITE BEFORE HE/SHE CAME
TO AMERICA.
ISABEL WILL KERRSON QUOTES LINE
IN HER BOOK WHEN SHE EXPLAINS
THE ORIGINS OF RACIAL
IDENTIFICATION IN THIS COUNTRY.
ISABEL WILKERSON IS BACK WITH
US, JOINING US BY PHONE.
ISABEL, WHAT DID JAMES BALDWIN
MEAN BY THAT?
>> WHAT HE MEANT WAS THAT THE
IDEA OF RACE IS, FIRST OF ALL, A
SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.
IT’S A CREATION THAT CAME OUT OF
THE EXPERIENCES OF STARTING A
NEW COUNTRY AND HAVING PEOPLE
FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE
WORLD, PRIMARILY FROM EUROPE AND
FROM AFRICA BROUGHT IN AS
ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
THE IMPULSE TO RANK, THE IMPULSE
TO CREATE AN ARTIFICIAL,
ARBITRARY GRADED RANKING OF
HUMAN VALUE, AND THE METRIC FOR
THAT WAS RACE, WHICH IS A SOCIAL
CONSTRUCT.
THERE WAS NO NEED FOR
RECOGNITION OR IDENTIFICATION OF
WHITE OR BLACK AS LONG AS YOU
WERE AROUND PEOPLE WHO WERE JUST
LIKE YOU.
IF YOU WERE IN HUNGARY OR IN
POLAND OR IRELAND, THERE WAS NO
NEED TO DESCRIBE YOURSELF AS
WHITE, BUT ONLY WHEN COMING TO
THE UNITED STATES TO CREATE THIS
NEW -- THIS NEW COUNTRY AND AS
EUROPEANS SPREAD AROUND THE
WORLD, THERE BECAME THE NEED OR
THE IMPULSE TO RANK AND TO
DIVIDE, AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN
ANY NUMBER OF PHYSICAL
MANIFESTATIONS OR
CHARACTERISTICS.
BUT IT TURNED OUT TO BE RACE AS
THE MEASURE OF VALUE IN THE
HIERARCHY THAT WAS CREATED HERE
IN THIS COUNTRY.
RACE BECOMES ESSENTIALLY THE
TOOL, THE SIGNIFIER, THE SIGNAL
OF ONE’S PLACE IN THE HIERARCHY.
>> THERE ARE SO MANY EXCUSES
THAT WERE MADE FOR PEOPLE BACK
IN THE DAYS OF SLAVERY.
YOU DESCRIBE ROBERT E. LEE
TORTURING HIS SLAVES IN THIS
BOOK.
BUT ALSO IN 1849, MASSACHUSETTS’
CHARLES SUMNER IS QUOTED IN YOUR
BOOK SAYING THE SEPARATION OF
CHILDREN IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS
OF BOSTON ON ACCOUNT OF COLOR OR
RACE, HE WROTE, IS IN THE NATURE
OF CASTE.
AND ON THIS ACCOUNT, IS A
VIOLATION OF EQUALITY.
HE QUOTED A FELLOW HUMANITARIAN,
SAYING, CASTE MAKES DISTINCTION
WHERE GOD HAS MADE NONE.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THOSE
VARIOUS LEVELS OF MORAL
EVOLUTION THAT EXISTED IN THE
SAME SOCIETY?
>> THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG
CONUNDRUMS THAT WE FACE AS A
SOCIETY AND AS A COUNTRY WITH
OUR HISTORY, IS THAT WE PROCLAIM
OURSELVES AND ARE VERY PROUD TO
PRESENT OURSELVES AS A PLACE OF
LIBERTY AND OF DEMOCRACY AND OF
OPENNESS FOR ALL PEOPLE.
AND YET BENAETHDEATH ALL OF THIS
THIS INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE ALL
INHERITED, THAT NO ONE IN LIFE
CREATED, BUT ENCASES US AND
ENCLOSES US IN WAYS WE MAY NOT
REALIZE.
WE’RE NOT DEALING WITH THE
RACISM OF OUR FOREFATHERS HP ERA
NECESSARILY, BUT THE IDEA OF
CASTE AS A REMINDER OF THE
HIERARCHIES THAT HAVE EXISTED
AND THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED AND
THAT HAVE PASSED DOWN TO THE
GENERATIONS WITH AN IDEA THAT
EVERYONE SEEMS TO KNOW.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT A PLAY, YOU
THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
THE CHARACTERS IN A PLAY AND YOU
THINK ABOUT THE WORD "CAST" USED
FOR A PLAY.
AND IN A PLAY, EVERYONE KNOWS
WHERE THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE,
STAGE LEFT, STAGE RIGHT.
PEOPLE KNOW THEIR LINES AND
MAYBE THE LINES OF OTHER PEOPLE
IN THE PLAY.
IF THEY’RE REALLY INVESTED IN
IT, THEY KNOW THE ENTIRE SCRIPT.
THAT IN SOME WAYS IS WHAT WE
HAVE INHERITED, AN
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT EACH OF US
HAS BEEN, BASED UPON WHERE WE
WERE BORN INTO THE HIERARCHY OF
DOMINANT VERSUS SUBORDINATED,
THAT WE ALL HAVE ABSORBED,
UNCONSCIOUS BIAS, HOWEVER WE
HAVE ABSORBED THIS, THAT WE ALL
HAVE BEEN TOLD THE PLACES WE
BELONG.
CASTE IS ABOUT POLICING OF
BOUNDARIES.
IN SOME WAYS, EVEN THE VIDEOS
WE’RE SEEING WHERE
AFRICAN-AMERICANS, FOR EXAMPLE,
ARE BEING -- POLICE CALLED ON
THEM FOR ROUTINE THINGS THEY’RE
DOING IN THEIR DAY, SITTING IN A
STARBUCKS WAITING FOR A FRIEND,
BARBECUING IN OAKLAND FOR
EXAMPLE, OR JUST TRYING TO GET
INTO ONE’S CONDO BUILDING.
THE IDEA OF THE AUTOMATIC
IMPULSE TO BEGIN TO POLICE, TO
SURVEIL, AND TO KEEP PEOPLE IN