AN ATTEMPT TO STEAL AN ELECTION
AND WEAPONIZING THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT IN THE PROCESS.
THATS BOTH ILLEGAL AND PRETTY
MUCH THE MOST UNAMERICAN THING
YOU CAN COME UP WITH IN YOUR
WILD IMAGINATION.
>> MORE REACTION TONIGHT TO
THOSE STUNNING NEW DETAILS ON
JUST HOW THE TWICE-IMPEACHED
FORMER PRESIDENT TRIED TO
OVERTURN AN ELECTION, INCLUDING
TELLING THE DOJ TO, QUOTE, JUST
SAY THE ELECTION WAS CORRUPT AND
LEAVE THE REST TO ME.
BILL KRISTOL PUT IT BLUNTLY.
THIS WAS THE CLOSEST WE HAVE
EVER COME TO A GENUINE
PRESIDENTIAL USURPATION.
THAT WASNT THE ONLY MAJOR
DEVELOPMENT COMING FROM THE
ATTORNEY GENERALS JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT TODAY.
THE DOJ REVERSED AN EARLIER
DECISION AND NOW SAYS THE IRS
MUST RELEASE SIX YEARS OF
TRUMPS HOUSE RETURNS TO HOUSE
INVESTIGATORS.
JUST A FEW DAYS AGO THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT SAID IT WONT MOVE TO
BLOCK FORMER TRUMP OFFICIALS
FROM TESTIFYING TO THE JANUARY
6th SELECT COMMITTEE, SO PLENTY
TO TALK ABOUT TONIGHT WITH
VICTORIA DeFRANCESCO SOTO,
PROFESSOR AND ASSISTANT DEAN AT
THE LBJ SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS IN
AUSTIN.
AND THE AFOREMENTIONED BILL
KRISTOL, AUTHOR, WRITER, THINKER
AND "POLITICO", VETERAN OF THE
REAGAN AND BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS
AND EDITOR AT LARGE AT "THE
BULWARK."
GREAT TO SEE YOU BOTH.
BILL KRISTOL, PUT IT IN
PERSPECTIVE FOR US.
HOW DOES TRUMPS PRESSURE ON THE
DOJ REVEAL HOW CLOSE WE CAME TO
USURPING THE PRESIDENCY?
>> YOU KNOW, CHRIS, THE EVENTS
OF JANUARY 6th ARE SO DRAMATIC
AND, OF COURSE, BROUGHT BACK
INTO HIGH RELIEF BY THE VERY
MOVING TESTIMONY OF THE CAPITOL
POLICE OFFICERS THIS WEEK.
ONE TENDS TO FORGET A LITTLE BIT
WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN NOVEMBER
3rd AND JANUARY 6th AND WHAT
HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES, WHAT
TRUMP TRIED TO DO NOT IN PUBLIC
WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT,
WITH THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT,
WITH STATE ELECTION OFFICIALS IN
MICHIGAN AND GEORGIA, IN A
PRETTY SYSTEMATIC EFFORT TO
OVERTURN THE ELECTION, WHICH IS
PRETTY AMAZING.
WITH A SITTING PRESIDENT, IT HAS
NOT HAPPENED IN THE U.S.
THE SITTING PRESIDENT TRYING TO
REVERTS THE VERDICT OF THE
PEOPLE AND STAY IN OFFICE USING
THE INSTRUMENTALITIES OF
GOVERNMENT.
HE FIRES THE SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE.
HE FORCES OUT BASICALLY THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL.
LUCKILY, A DEPUTY ATTORNEY
GENERAL, WHO HE THOUGHT WOULD BE
MORE PLIANT, SEEMS TO HAVE
RESISTED HIM IN THE CALL.
HE THOUGHT ABOUT GETTING RID OF
HIM AND REPLACING HIM WITH A
MORE COOPERATIVE PERSON TO RUN
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
I THINK WHEN YOU PUT IT
ALL TOGETHER AND I HOPE THE
HEARINGS DO THIS IN A SYSTEMATIC
WAY, WE BOTH WILL BE SHOCKED BY
THE INCREDIBLE IRRESPONSIBILITY
AND CALLOUSNESS OF FOSTERING AN
ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL OBVIOUSLY,
BUT ALSO BY THIS MUCH MORE
SYSTEMATIC EFFORT TO OVERTURN
THE ELECTION AND REALLY SEE THE
DEPTH OF WHAT -- OF HOW AS WAS
SAID HOW UNAMERICAN WHAT TRUMP
TRIED TO DO WAS AND BE ASTOUNDED
ONE OF OUR TWO MAJOR PARTIES
STILL SEEMS TO REGARD HIM AS ITS
LEADER.
>> VICTORIA, WITH THE
REVELATIONS OF JUST HOW MUCH
PRESSURE WAS PUT ON DOJ PUSHING
THESE BASELESS CLAIMS, WE HAVE
THE RULING THAT FORMER TRUMP
OFFICIALS CAN BE SUBPOENAED BY
THE JANUARY 6th SELECT
COMMITTEE.
WOULD YOU EXPECT NOT JUST THAT
COMMITTEE, POTENTIALLY OTHERS TO
MOVE MAYBE QUICKLY.
I MEAN TEAM TRUMP, OF COURSE,
PROBABLY WILL PUSH BACK AND ONE
AGAINST IS FRAMING IT ALL AS A
WITCH HUNT, BUT HOW DO YOU SEE
IT ALL PLAYING OUT?
>> I THINK WHAT WE HAVE SEEN
OVER THE COURSE OF THIS WEEK,
CHRIS, YOU KNOW, WITH THE
TESTIMONY FROM THE JANUARY 6th
COMMISSION AND THEN WHAT WE SAW
FROM THE DOJ JUST REALLY
HIGHLIGHTS HOW CLOSE WE CAME TO
THE EDGE BECAUSE THIS ISNT
SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN THE UNITED
STATES.
I THINK THAT THE OTHER PIECE OF
THIS THAT YOU MENTIONED EARLIER,
IN TRUMP GIVING UP HIS TAX
RETURNS.
WELL, THIS TO ME -- I AM
STANDING WAY BACK, MAYBE THREE
STEPS BACK.
THIS TO ME IS ABOUT THE BRANCH
OF CONGRESS REASSERTING CHECKS
AND BALANCES, BECAUSE WHAT WE
SAW DURING THE WHOLE TRUMP
PRESIDENCY AND ESPECIALLY DURING
THAT INTERIM OF THE ELECTION IN
JANUARY 6th WAS AN UNBRIDLED
PRESIDENT.
WE HAVE SEEN PRESIDENTIAL POWER
GROWN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL
DECADES AND IT REALLY BALLOONED
UNDER TRUMP.
SO THIS IS WHERE WE SEE THE NEED
FOR A CONGRESS TO COME AND
REASSERT ITSELF.
EVEN THOUGH IT MAY SEEM MINOR
NOW BECAUSE TRUMP IS OUT OF
OFFICE AND IT IS MORE ABOUT A
CRIMINAL ISSUE, THE FACT THAT
THEY CAN CHECK HIS POWER,
BECAUSE HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
BEHOLDEN TO FOREIGN POWERS WHILE
HE WAS PRESIDENT, IS CRUCIAL TO
SECURING OUR DEMOCRATIC
INSTITUTION BECAUSE REALLY THIS
IS AT THE END OF THE DAY ABOUT
SMALL "D" DEMOCRATIC THEORY.
>> BILL KRISTOL, PEGGY NEWNAN AT
THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" WRITES
THIS ABOUT THE JANUARY 6th
COMMISSION.
MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN
LEADERSHIP ARE MAKING A HUGE
ERROR IN HOW THEY ARE RESPONDING
TO THE COMMITTEE.
THEY MISUNDERSTAND THEIR OWN
POSITION.
THEY SHOULD BE QUIETLY TRYING TO
PUSH AWAY FROM THE DISASTER BY
LEAVING IT ON MR. TRUMP AND HIS
WHITE HOUSE, NOT THEIR OWN
PARTY.
THEN SHE WENT ON TO CRITICIZE
MINORITY LEADER KEVIN McCARTHY.
IS IT TOO LATE, DO YOU THINK,
BILL, FOR REPUBLICANS TO CHANGE
COURSE AND, AS PEGGY PUT IT,
NAIL EVERYBODY INVOLVED?
>> WELL, THEY COULD DO IT, I
SUPPOSE, AND MAYBE THEY WILL.
IT IS BETTER IF THEY DO THAN
THEY DONT, BUT PEGGY PUTS IT IN
A TECHNICAL WAY, IT IS UNWISE
FOR THEM.
IT IS WRONG WHAT THEYRE DOING.
IT IS NOT A MATTER OF, OH, THEY
WOULD BE BETTER OFF POLITICALLY
TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES.
SO FAR THEY DONT THINK THEYRE
BETTER OFF POLITICALLY TO
DISTANCE THEMSELVES TOO MUCH.
SOME ARE DISTANCING THEMSELVES A
LITTLE BIT, BUT THIS NEEDS TO BE
UNEQUIVOCALLY REPUDIATED.
IT HASNT BEEN.
>> HERE IS WHAT I WANT TO --
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
I UNDERSTAND THE MONEY PART OF
IT BECAUSE YOU PUT TRUMP IN A
FUNDRAISING E-MAIL AND THE
DOLLARS JUST COME ROLLING IN.
BUT FROM, AGAIN, A STRATEGIC
TACTICAL POINT OF VIEW, HE LOST
THE WHITE HOUSE, HE LOST THE
SENATE, HE LOST THE HOUSE, AND
NOW LIKE WERE SEEING IN TEXAS
PEOPLE WHO HE IS SUPPORTING ARE
LOSING.
SO IM JUST -- FROM ANY KIND OF
PERSPECTIVE, HOW DOES THIS WORK?
>> THEY DONT SEE IT QUITE THAT
WAY.
THEY PICKED UP HOUSE SEATS.
THEY ALMOST WON THE SENATE.
THEY HAPPENED TO LOSE THE TWO
GEORGIA ELECTIONS.
THEY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ALL OF
THE ENERGY OF TRUMP, ALL OF THE
DEMAGOGUERY WHICH IS SUCCESSFUL.
LETS NOT KID OURSELVES, THAT
TRUMP ENGAGED IN, AND GET RID OF
THE LESS ATTRACTIVE ASPECTS OF
IT.
I DONT THINK YOU CAN DO THAT.
THEY DONT HAVE THE COURAGE TO
REPUDIATE HIM.
THEYRE SCARED OF THE PRIMARY
CHALLENGES.
ONE CAN STEP BACK AND SAY IT IS
UNWISE FOR THEM TO DO THIS.
THEY DONT THINK THEYRE DOING
BADLY.
DOES McCARTHY THINK HES GOING
THE LOSE THE HOUSE IN 2022?
NO, THEY THINK REPUBLICANS HAVE
A DECENT CHANCE.
THEY DONT THINK REPUBLICANS
HAVE A CHANCE IN 2024.
I WOULD SAY HONESTLY THEY DO
DESPITE THE LACK OF REPUDIATION.
THEY HAVE NOT PAID A PRICE.
WHO HAS PAID A PRICE?