Thank you.
Amna: Good evening and welcome
to the newshour.
The CEO of the fastest growing
app on the planet went head to
head with members of congress
today.
Geoff: Tiktok has more than 150
million monthly users in the us
alone, but faces growing calls
for it to be banned over fears
about China's access to user
data.
Laura Barron Lopez looks into
the potential personal,
political, and international
fallout should the government
ban the platform.
Correspondent: What started with
one viral video is now a
full-time career for 27-year-old
Alex d'alessio.
>> I will put it in my ring and
hit record.
Correspondent: Two years ago, he
was an engineer working a
nine-to-five and new homeowner
of a Baltimore townhouse.
>> I will tile my entire bar and
here is how it turned out.
Correspondent: He began posting
his do-it-yourself renovation
projects to the social media app
tik-tok.
Building a home, and also an
audience.
>> The grout perfectly matches
the countertops and I am loving
divide.
>> One, like, Tuesday morning
before work, I was like, let me
just upload this video.
And then I came home to work and
I was like, whoa.
It was like 200,000 views.
Like, I had all these comments.
And from there it just kind of
started.
Correspondent: Now with more
than 300,000 tik-tok followers,
d'alessio runs real life
renovations, a brand and a
business where he documents his
projects' successes and
mistakes, partnering with
companies like Home Depot and
Benjamin Moore.
>> Brands started reaching out,
and that's when the light bulb
really clicked.
And I was like, maybe this could
be something bigger than it is
and eventually be full time.
Correspondent: So this isn't
just a hobby for you.
This is your business
>> 100%.
Correspondent: But he is worried
that the new job he has created
-- which has also allowed him to
hire his mother-in-law part-time
-- could go away.
>> It just seems like you have
no control, and the government
is deciding for you, which is
really scary.
I am trying to put on a good
face, but that is my business,
and it is detrimental.
>> Your platform should be
banned.
Correspondent: And it is all at
risk in Washington.
>> Welcome to the most
bipartisan committee in
congress.
We care about our national
security.
>> Are you a Chinese company?
Correspondent: Where Democrats
and Republicans share a common
enemy in tiktok and its CEO shou
chew, appearing before congress
today for the first time.
>> Bytedance is not owned or
controlled by the Chinese
government.
Correspondent: Defensive amid a
fierce and bipartisan
interrogation of the company's
safety, privacy and security
practices.
Chew was adamant that the
Chinese communist party cannot
access U.S. Data through
tik-tok, as members repeatedly
alleged.
>> This is yet another instance
of tiktok attempting to mislead
Americans about what their
technology is capable of and who
has access to their information.
Correspondent: Chew pushed back,
emphasizing tiktok's project
Texas plan, which puts the
American company Oracle in
control of U.S. Data and
content.
>> American data stored on
American soil, by an American
company, overseen by American
personnel.
Correspondent: There is no
public evidence that China has
use the platform to spy on
Americans, but lawmakers were
not convinced.
>> I have seen no evidence that
the Chinese government has
access to that data.
They have never asked us, we
have not provided.
>> You know what?
I find that actually
preposterous.
Correspondent: It has been a
long brewing fight across two
administrations.
In recent weeks the white house
repeated the pressure on
tiktok's parent company
bytedance to sell the app to an
American owned company.
And president Biden expressed
support for a bipartisan bill
that would strengthen his
authority to ban the app.
Dozens of creators who have more
than 60 million followers
combined to on capitol hill this
week to defend the platform.
>> So I am asking our
politicians, don't take away the
community that we have all
built.
Correspondent: One by one, they
argued the platform is more than
an apt force of the viral
videos, that it is empowered
small businesses, promoted
creativity, lifted up
marginalized voices and become a
mainstay of American life.
The average user spends 56
minutes a day on it, more than
YouTube, Snapchat, Instagram, or
Facebook.
>> It almost feels like if you
cannot beat them cancel them.
I just wish they would try and
exhaust all other options prior
to potentially canceling it.
>> Here is how easy it is to
change out --
correspondent: For creators
across the country like Alex
d'alessio, re-creating what
they've built on tiktok on
another platform is not easy and
comes with no guarantees that
the new business will survive.
>> What a lot of people don't
realize on the creator side is
Instagram allows you to post a
minute and a half reels. That's
the max.
Tiktok allows you to post 10
minute videos.
I will back that up.
Correspondent: At least half of
Alex's income comes from his
work on the at, and he and his
wife, a second-grade grade
teacher, rely on that money.
You said your income would be
cut in half.
How quickly do you think you
could even make up that money
switching over to another app?
>> Not quickly.
It is not something that I can
easily change.
I cannot just grow and Instagram
following bigger or YouTube
following figure.
Correspondent: He does not
normally follow politics but
said he would watch the hearing
today, hopeful lawmakers would
listen to his generation.
In the meantime he will continue
renovating project by project.
But his new career it may be
built on a foundation that is
about to give way.
For the pbs newshour, I'm Laura
barron-lopez.
Geoff: For more on the legal and
national security concerns
regarding tiktok, we're joined
by Ryan calo, S a professor of
law and information science at
the university of Washington is
closely following all of this.
Thanks for being with us.
Tiktok has never been more
popular or problematic.
As was evident in today's
hearing, the U.S. Believes the
tiktok might be pressured by the
Chinese government into sharing
user data.
You believe this prolong debate
in Washington about tiktok has
more to do with politics and
less to do with privacy.
Tell me more about that.
>> Tiktok like other tech
companies collect a lot of data
about users, may be more than
most users understand.
In that way it does present a
danger to privacy, but there is
not any good evidence that
danger is unique to tiktok as
opposed to other companies like
YouTube, Google, or meta.
What is distinct is tiktok has a
Chinese parent company, and it
seems like a lot of politicians
are seizing on that fact to
speculate about Chinese -- China
presenting a threat.
Geoff: --
in your view was that assurance
satisfactory, because there is a
lot of skepticism that tiktok
could ever be beyond the reach
of the Chinese government as
long as it is owned by
bytedance, a Chinese company
subject to Chinese national law?
>> It seems like the options on
the table are rather severe.
One involves forcing a company
to sell, and the other is a
complete and -- ban on a service
millions of Americans use.
The third option tiktok is
presenting would keep American
data on American soil, and
information would only float to
the parent company under very
specific conditions and actually
have to be vetted by people
within the U.S. Government.
The whole arrangement is
enforced technically by an
American company called Oracle,
so it does seem like a pretty
robust measure in place.
I understand it is no complete
guarantee that China will never
be able to access Americans'
data, but it does seem to be a
compromise position as opposed
to a ban or for sale.
Geoff: The Biden administration
says it once tiktok sold or
banned.
There are political
ramifications, legally how would
the U.S. Government go about
banning a communication platform
without running a fall -- afoul
of the first amendment?
>> Here it looks as though Biden
might have congress behind him.
Congress could pass a law like
the one they are thinking about
the restrict act, which would
confer upon not the president or
secretary of commerce the
ability to vet applications and
services for national security
concerns and cause a forest sale
or ban.
The courts would react
skeptically, first of all
because it is such a serious
incursion on the world for the
government to force one company
to sell to another or ban it
entirely.
Because it does raise
free-speech concerns that you
just mentioned.
Geoff: Tiktok is the second most
popular app for teens, second
only to YouTube.
It opposed 150 million users in
the U.S., and that speaks to
another source of tension and
unease, that at some point in
the future of the internet might
not be controlled by the U.S.
And subject to U.S. Values and
norms about freedom and
security.
That China could take the lead.
>> I will just say that I am
more concerned about tiktok's
recommendation algorithms and I
am about its collection and use
of data, especially as compared
to other companies.
And that is precisely for the
reason you just said.
The concern that I would have is
that the algorithms that tiktok
uses wood surface content that
was in favor of the Chinese
worldview and dampen criticism,
and that is very concerning.
Whatever protections I put into
place, I would hope that they
would have a separate algorithm
that is used in the united
States that is not beholden to a
Chinese agenda.
Geoff: In your view to average
Americans, regular tiktok users,
do they have reason to be
concerned the Chinese government
might leverage their mobile data
or personal information?
>> I do not think so.
Let me say a little bit about
why.
First of all, the Chinese
intelligence sector has perhaps
the most advanced or second most
advanced spying capabilities in
the world.
And so if the Chinese government
wanted to get a hold of an
individual's data, they would
not have to rely on tiktok.
The way that tiktok could be
useful is to get an aggregate
sense of American mood or
understanding what Americans'
patterns are or trying to
understand us as a people or
young users.
But the Chinese government could
just as easily -- there are data
brokers happy to share
information about Americans with
people who will pay them
including China.
I do not know tiktok is the most
efficient implausible way for
the Chinese government to spy on
Americans.
As I mentioned at the outset,
young users or whomever is using
tiktok should be aware that
there privacy is not adequately
protected, and what we need is
comprehensive privacy laws in
the United States to protect all
Americans from all of the tech
companies who want to leverage
their data.
Geoff: Ryan is a professor of
technology at the university of
Washington.
Thank you so much for your
insight.
>> Thanks for having me.