GEOFF BENNETT: Donald Trump and his allies are preparing for a second term in office that would
massively expand the power of the presidency, centralizing control within the Oval Office.
Laura Barron-Lopez explains.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Strip tens of thousands of career civil servants of protections and replace
them with political hires and exert political influence over the Justice Department, these are
some of the agenda items under discussion among former President Donald Trump and his allies if
he retakes office in 2024, according to recent reports by The New York Times and The Economist.
For more on what this would mean for our democracy and the power
of the executive branch, I'm joined by Ruth Ben-Ghiat. She's a history
professor at New York University and an expert on authoritarianism.
Ruth, thank you so much for joining us.
The New York Times and The Economist spoke to a number of former and current
Donald Trump advisers about this effort to radically expand the executive. One of them,
the former Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vought, told The Times this:
"What we're trying to do is identify the pockets of independence and seize them."
Ruth, you have said that there is a term for this. What is that term and what does it mean?
RUTH BEN-GHIAT, NYU History Professional: Yes, in studies of authoritarianism,
it's autocratic capture, autocratic capture.
And what this Trump adviser has described is that. When you remake government, you remake
civil service. So you purge people who will not be loyal to you. So, loyalty becomes a requirement,
not expertise, and you restaff government with people who will do your bidding and,
in this way, hugely centralizing and increasing presidential power.
And I was also struck by his language, seizing, looking for pockets of independence,
and seizing them. And this also negates the idea of an independent civil service
and independent institutions. This is a bedrock of democracy.
And the word seizing, this is not the language of democratic reform.
This is the language of authoritarian takeover.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Trump, as we know, is facing potentially a third
indictment in a matter of days for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.
Much of his campaign has been centered on his plans to go after the Justice Department.
DONALD TRUMP, Former President of the United States:
I will totally obliterate the deep state. We will find the globalists,
warmongers and the bureaucrats who have weaponized our justice system, and we
will escort them from federal buildings. We're going to get them the hell out of government.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Now, Ruth Trump's campaign may be the most explicit in
their plans for the Justice Department, but think tanks like the American First
Policy Institute and the conservative Heritage Foundation have really crafted
blueprints for any Republican that may win the presidency in 2024.
What's the endgame here?
RUTH BEN-GHIAT: So, strongmen and authoritarians are not like other politicians.
For example, many of them are under investigation when they
run for office. That was true with Berlusconi in Italy, with Putin,
with Trump in '16 -- 2016. And now he has his legal woes. Netanyahu. And so the purpose
of getting into power becomes to capture the judicial system and make yourself untouchable.
And we have an example in Israel now with Netanyahu facing corruption charges. And
so he's very focused on judicial reform, and this is why there are
enormous protests against him. But these are things that autocrats do
routinely. And so it's interesting to me that Trump is able to capitalize on
this preexisting discourse of the deep state that Republicans had peddled for many years.
And now he's personalized it because he has so many
legal woes. And so he needs to get into office and realize the dream of becoming untouchable.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: That former Trump adviser, Russell Vought,
that I mentioned has said that this plan is now -- quote -- "Republican doctrine."
And we have seen other candidates, like Florida Governor Ron DeSantis,
who is the leading challenger to Trump, talk about plans like this as well,
wanting to abolish certain agencies and take more control.
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), Presidential Candidate:
You're going to see the Justice Department turned inside out. For far too long, this bureaucracy has
imposed its will on us. It's about time we impose our will on it, and that's what we're going to do.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Ruth, is that also a classic example of autocratic capture?
RUTH BEN-GHIAT: It is.
I mean, federal bureaucracy, you take an oath to the Constitution. You are serving the public,
as well as the administration. But DeSantis saying there he's going to
impose his will is an assertion of executive power beyond and -- beyond
what is proper for an independent and democratic political system.
It's the same with Trump. Trump is not saying that he's going to fire inefficient people,
he's going to get rid of big government because it doesn't work. Trump is saying
he's going to purge -- quote -- "the sick political class that hates our country."
So political attributes are at stake here. That's what the criteria is,
and that's what's disturbing in terms of the health of our democracy.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Ruth Ben-Ghiat of New York University, thank you so much.
RUTH BEN-GHIAT: Pleasure.