THE SUN COMES UP OVER
WASHINGTON.
IT’S GREAT TO BE HERE.
AS WE APPROACH THE 100th DAY OF
HIS PRESIDENCY, PRESIDENT BIDEN
IS ENJOYING BROAD SUPPORT FOR
HIS AGENDA, WHICH HAS MANY
PROGRESSIVES SEEING HIM AS A TRANSFORMATIONAL PRESIDENT.
TRANSFORMATIONAL PRESIDENT.
IT’S AN ARGUMENT MADE BY ANNAN
GEARARDIS.
BUT THE NATIONAL REVIEW’S RA
NESH SAYS FOR ALL OF THE
DEMOCRATS’ AMBITIONS TO
TRANSFORM THE COUNTRY, THERE’S
NOT A LOT OF TRANSFORMATION
UNDERWAY.
AND RANESH AND AYMAN JOIN US.
WHAT’S HAPPENING!
>> THAT’S NOT UNUSUAL FOR ME.
RAMESH, LET’S START WITH YOU.
YOU WRITE IN YOUR PIECE,
BRILLIANTLY, THAT IT’S IN THE
REPUBLICANS AND THE DEMOCRATS’
BEST INTEREST TO SUGGEST THERE’S
THIS GREAT PROGRESSIVE
TRANSFORMATION GOING ON.
BUT YOU’RE NOT BUYING INTO IT.
WHY?
>> RAMESH --
>> AND HE FROZE!
>> IT LOOKS ANNAN, THIS IS GOING
TO BE A DEBATE THAT YOU’RE GOING
TO ENJOY.
WE’RE GOING TO LET YOU TALK
ABOUT WHY YOU THINK --
>> I LIKE MY CHANCES SUDDENLY.
>> THEY JUST WENT UP AT LEAST
5%.
WHY DON’T YOU TELL US WHAT I
THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE SAYING RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST IN
RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST IN
DEMOCRATIC CIRCLES, THAT THIS IS
A BIG PROGRESSIVE PUSH AND JOE
BIDEN IS EXCEEDING EXPECTATIONS
ON THAT FRONT.
AND WE’LL TRY TO GET RAMESH
BACK.
GO AHEAD, ANAND.
>> I DON’T THINK JOE BIDEN IS A
MATTER OF PERSONA A
TRANSFORMATIONAL FIGURE.
I THINK THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN
TRANSFORMED WE REALITY.
I THINK THE FACTS OF AMERICA
HAVE CHANGED THE AMERICAN
CONSENSUS.
AND JOE BIDEN’S ROLE IN THIS IS
ONE I REALLY ADMIRE.
IT’S THE ROLE OF SOMEONE WHO IS
PERSUADABLE BY A CHANGINGE INGIN
REALITY, WHICH NOT A LOT OF US
ARE.
A LOT OF US ARE TOO PROUD TO
CHANGE, TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE
CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IN WHICH WE
WERE STEEPED IS DIFFERENT.
JOE BIDEN’S ROLE HERE TO ME IS
SOMEONE WHO HAS RECOGNIZED THAT
THE AGE OF REAGAN WE’VE BEEN
LIVING IN SINCE 1981, THE YEAR
OF MY BIRTH, I DON’T TAKE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT, HOWEVER,
THE ASSUMPTION THAT GOVERNMENT
IS THE PROBLEM AS REAGAN SAID IN
THAT INAUGURAL ADDRESS IN THAT
YEAR.
THE ASSUMPTION THAT GOVERNMENT
IS KIND OF REGRETTABLE.
THAT THE MARKET IS ALWAYS BEST
AT SOLVING ALL TYPES OF
PROBLEMS.
THAT BASIC SPELL HAS BEEN WITH
US FOR 40 YEARS THERE HAVE BEEN
REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE WON IN THAT
AREA, AND DEMOCRATS WHO WON IN THAT ERR.
THAT ERR.
I’M NOT SURE HE BLED IN HIS
HEART, BUT I THINK WHAT’S
HAPPENING NOW IN 2021 IS THE
BREAKING OF THAT SPELL BY
REALITY.
I DON’T THINK MOST AMERICANS
WATCHING THIS THINK OF
GOVERNMENT AS THE MAIN PROBLEM
ANYMORE.
THEY’VE BEEN PERHAPS SIDESWIPED
BY THE 2008 CRISIS.
THE GOVERNMENT WAS NOT THE
PROBLEM IN THE 2008 CRISIS
THEY’VE BEEN HIT BY RISING
INEQUALITY.
NOT PAID ENOUGH.
I DON’T THINK GOVERNMENT IS THE
PROBLEM FOR THEM IN THAT
SITUATION.
THE INSURANCE COMPANIES DENY
THEIR CLAIMS.
I DON’T THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS
THE PROBLEM FOR THEM.
AND NOW IN COVID, THE ULTIMATE
TEST OF THE ONLY SOLUTIONS ARE
THINGS WE DO TOGETHER, NOT DO
ALONE, I DON’T THINK AMERICANS
THINK OF GOVERNMENT AS THE
PROBLEM AS THEY’RE GETTING SHOTS
IN THE ARM.
SO JOE BIDEN HAS FOUGHT FOR
PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHIFTED THE
SENSE OF THE NORMAL.
AND I THINK WE’RE ON THE BRINK
OF A NEW PROGRESSIVE ERA, AS I
SAID, NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF ONE
YET.
>> LET’S GET RAMESH IN HERE.
I THINK WE HAVE YOU BACK HERE.
WHAT SAY YOU?
>> I THINK ANAND IS RIGHT IN
CAPTURING THE ZEITGEIST OF THE
BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, BUT I
THINK THAT WE HEARD A LOT OF THE
SAME THINGS ABOUT THE PUBLIC
HAVING FUNDAMENTALLY REJECTED
REAGANITE CONSERVATISM BACK WHEN
BARACK OBAMA WAS GETTING
INAUGURATED AND PASSING HIS
STIMULUS.
AND I JUST WONDER WHETHER THIS
IS GOING TO TURN OUT TO BE ANY
TRUER THIS TIME THAN IT WAS THAT
TIME.
THAT WAS IN THE IMMEDIATE SFRAMT
OF THE FINANCIAL CRISIS, WHEN
PEOPLE, A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT
THAT PEOPLE’S VIEWS ABOUT
MARKETS AND COMPETITION AND
REGULATION MIGHT HAVE CHANGED
FOREVER AND THEY JUST DIDN’T.
RIGHT NOW, WE’RE SEEING A
DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION WITH A
DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS, THAT IS
SHOWING THAT IT SPEND A LOT OF
MONEY, BUT IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY
PASSING THE LEGISLATION THAT
DEMOCRATS REALLY WANT, I THINK
WE’RE GOING TO SEE A LOT
ZPOICHLTS PILE UP.
WE’VE ALREADY SEEN THE $15
MINIMUM WAGE GET TOSSED IN THE
DUST BIN.
WE’LL SEE THAT AGAIN.
THE ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN, ANOTHER
THING THAT IS JUST POT GOING TO
HAPPEN IN THIS CONGRESS.
THIS IS A VERY, VERY TIGHTLY
DIVIDED CONGRESS.
THEY’VE GOT THE NARROWEST
DEMOCRATIC MARGIN IN THE HOUSE
SINCE THE RUTHERFORD B. HAYES
ADMINISTRATION.
AND THE IDEA WE’LL SEE THIS BIG
LEFT WING JUGGERNAUT, IT’S
SOMETHING THAT SCARES THEM, SO
BOTH WILL WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
I DON’T KNOW IF IT WILL ACTUALLY
HAPPEN.
RAMESH, LET ME TALK ABOUT WHAT
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER
THIS MORNING.
I AGREE WITH YOU THAT AFTER PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ELECTED, YOU
PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ELECTED, YOU
LOOK AT THE HEADLINES AND THE
EDITORIAL S
EDITORIALS IN THE DAYS AFTER,
IT’S LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE READE
PREDICTING THE DEATH OF THE
MODERN CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IN
AMERICA.
BUT LOOK AT THE PUBLIC OPINION
POLLS WE’VE SEEN NOW.
79% OF AMERICANS SUPPORTING A
COVID RELIEF BILL THAT NEITHER
YOU NOR I NOR STEVE RATTNER OR
NOR LARRY SUMMERS WOULD SUPPORT
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IT SPINS TOO
MUCH, IT SPENDS MORE THAN
ACTUALLY WAS TAKEN FROM THE
ECONOMY, BUT VERY POPULAR WITH
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
THE SAME THING WITH THIS
TRANSPORTATION BILL.
THE SAME THING WITH RAISING
TAXES ON CORPORATIONS, THE SAME
THING WITH RAISING TAXES MAKING
OVER $400,000.
I DIDN’T SEE THAT IN 2009.
I SAW THE TEA PARTY BEGIN TO
EMERGE.
WHEN YOU SEE THOSE NUMBERS, WHAT
DO YOU TAKE AWAY FROM THAT?
>> I THINK THAT SPENDING IS
THE -- FUPIF YOU WANT TO MAKE TH
CASE THAT PROGRESSIVE HAS
RUNNING REPUBLICAN, SPENDING IS
THE PLACE WHERE IT HAS THAT.
PARTLY THAT’S BECAUSE OF THE WAY
THE SNAENATE WORKS AND THE FACT
THAT YOU CAN PASS SPEND BILLS
WITH A BARE MAJORITY AND PARTLY
BECAUSE REPUBLICANS HAVE LOST
THEIR CREDIBILITY ON SPENDING
ISSUES AND LOST THEIR INTEREST
IN CONSTRAINING SPENDING BASED
ON THEIR RECORD DURING THE BUSH
AND TRUMP YEARS, THAT THAT KIND
OF TACTIC ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE
HAS KIND OF PLAYED OUT.
ON TAXES, THOUGH, LOOK AT THE
CORPORATE TAX RATE WEBER TALKING
ABOUT A TRUMP TAX CUT THAT TOOK
THAT FROM 35 TOGETHER TO 21%.
AND NOW DEMOCRATS WITH JOE
MANCHIN ONBOARD WANT TO TAKE IT
ALL THE WAY BACK TO UP TO 25%.
THAT IS TO SAY, LEAVING MOST OF
THE TRUMP RATE REDUCTION FOR
CORPORATIONS IN PLACE.
THAT IS NOT A LEFT-WING
REVOLUTION.
IT MAY BE A BAD IDEA OR A GOOD
IDEA, BUT I DON’T THINK IT IS
THE END OF REAGANISM.
>> ANAND, I’LL LET YOU APPLY TO
THAT DIRECTLY.
SOMETHING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
EARLIER IS THE SURPRISE FRANKLY
OF MANY OF THE MOST PROGRESSIVE
MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AS JUST HOW
PROGRESSIVE JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN,
SPECIFICALLY IN THAT $1.9
TRILLION BILL PACKAGE THAT WENT
THROUGH TO ADDRESS COVID RELIEF.
BUT EMBEDDED WITHIN IT, I KNOW
YOU TALKED TO ILHAN OMAR FOR
YOUR PIECE, EMBEDDED POVERTY
FIGHTING MEASURES AS WELL.
>> ARTICLE NUMBER ONE OF
EVIDENCE IS THAT YOU AND JOE AND
MIKA NOW SAY MY NAME MORE
ACCURATELY OF RAMESH DID.
>> I’VE KNOWN YOU A LONG TIME,
ANAND.
>> I KNOW.
SO I THINK -- PART OF WHAT I
THINK -- I’M NOT A POLICY GURU
THE WAY MAYBE I SHOULD BE, BUT I
THINK A LOT ABOUT CULTURAL
WAVES.
AND TO ME, THE NEW THING THAT IS
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IS THE CHIP
OF RECEIVED WISDOM TURNING.
AND THE ISSUE YOU RAISE IS ONE
GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT.
SINCE THE 60s, SINCE THE RIGHTS
ERA, THERE HAS BEEN THIS
RELUCTANCE ON THE PART OF
DEMOCRATS TO TALK ABOUT THE
POOR.
AND IN SOME WAYS, JOE BIDEN’S
RHETORIC IN RECENT DECADES WAS
AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.
ALWAYS THE MIDDLE CLASS.
MIDDLE CLASS, MIDDLE CLASS.
I’M JOE BIDEN, I LIKE THE MIDDLE
CLASS.
THAT WAS EMBLEMATIC OF DEMOCRATS
WANTING SOUND, PARTICULARLY TOO
WHITE WORKING CLASS VOTERS THAT
THEY’RE THE PARTY OF THE MIDDLE
CLASS.
THEY’RE NOT HELPING SOME
UNDESERVING POOR WELFARE QUEEN
FANTASY THAT THE REAGANITES
CONCOCTED.
AND THAT HAS SHIFTED TO.
I SPOKE TO FOR MY PIECE IN "THE
ATLANTIC,," REVEREND WILLIAM
BARBER.
AND THEY SAID, THEY ARE TALKING
ABOUT POVERTY, USING THE WORD
POVERTY, INSTALLING THESE INGING
BENEFITS FOR LOW-INCOME PARENTS
AND VARIOUS OTHERS WAYS, AND
THAT’S ONE EXAMPLE IN WHICH -- I
THINK THE TERMS OF THE DEBATE
HAVE SHIFTED.
I DON’T THINK THERE’S THAT MUCH
DAYLIGHT NECESSARILY BETWEEN
RAMESH AND MY’S DIAGNOSIS OF HOW
FAR THIS GUY HAS GONE.
THAT’S NOT WHAT I’M SAYING.
I AM TALKING ABOUT -- EVEN ON
THIS SHOW, THAT ARGUMENT THAT
JOE AND I MIGHT HAVE HAD ABOUT
CAPITALISM AND GOVERNMENT SIX
YEARS AGO IS DIFFERENT THAN THE
ONE WE HAVE TODAY, BECAUSE I
THINK REALITY HAS CHANGED.
I THINK THERE’S A GROWING
RECOGNITION THAT THE AMERICAN
DREAM IS FANTASTIC, BUT IT’S A
SHAME THAT IT ONLY EXISTS IN
EUROPE.
AND THERE’S A GROWING DESIRE TO
IMPORT IT BACK INTO THE UNITED
STATES.
>> COME ON!
NO, WE DON’T AGREE THAT MUCH AN
ANAND, WE DON’T AGREE THAT MUCH.
BUT I THINK, REALLY QUICKLY TO
FOLLOW UP ON THAT, YOU KNOW,
WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE LIKE ALAN
GREENSPAN GREENSPAN SAYING
SEVERAL YEARS AGO THAT INCOME
DISPARITY IS A THREAT TO
AMERICAN CAPITALISM, THAT’S
SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF EVEN
LIBERTARIAN/CONSERVATIVES NOW
RECOGNIZE.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND IN A WAY, THAT’S HOW
COUNTRIES CHANGE, RIGHT?
NOT WHEN THE SAME PITCH FROM THE
SAME GROUP IS CONTINUING TO
PREACH TO THE CHOIR, BUT WHEN
SOME OF THOSE ARGUMENTS CROSS
OVER.
AND FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU, JOE,
THE IDEA OF MOBILITY, STALLING
IN THIS COUNTRY.
THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY
DON’T GET WHERE THEIR TALENTS
SHOULD TAKE THEM JUST BY WORKING
HARD.
THAT’S THE KIND OF THING THAT
MIGHT CHANGE YOUR MIND IN A WAY
THAT SOME KIND OF HUMAN RIGHTS
ARGUMENT FOR HEALTH CARE MIGHT
NOT.
AND THAT’S GOOD.
THAT’S WHY I THINK THE TERMS OF
THE DEBATE HAVE SHIFTED, BECAUSE
REALITY HAS INTRUDED ON SOME OF
THE NARRATIVES THAT WE HAVE IN
THIS COUNTRY.
SOME OF THE NARRATIVE ARNSD THE
FACT WHERE YOUR DREAMS ARE THE