Rebecca Carroll, welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show.
Thank you so much for having me, Trevor.
It's truly a pleasure to have you here
because you are, for so many people, a cultural icon.
You know, you're a critic at large.
You've interviewed some of the most notable voices
and faces in the world today.
You've had some of the most interesting conversations,
not just about life, but about race
and how it affects everybody's lives.
But today, we're having you on the show for a really, um,
similar, and yet, different reason, and that is
because you've turned that lens on yourself
with one of my favorite memoirs that I've ever read.
As somebody who is so used to asking people about their lives,
was it easier or harder to ask yourself questions
about where you had come from and how you had come to be?
Thank you, Trevor, for such a delightful
and kind and generous introduction.
I am really, really thrilled to be here,
uh, and appreciate you so much.
So, I thought it would be, given the fact
that I had interviewed so many people, like, I thought,
"Oh, yeah, I'll just turn it," as you said,
"on me and ask myself some questions."
Turns out, that's now how memoir writing works.
(both laughing)
Uh, neither is it about, you know,
sort of stringing, um, memories together.
It's really a craft.
And so that was the thing that...
that I was most concerned with
and also, the most sort of, um, focused on.
And I know that the story is interesting, 'cause I lived it.
-Right. -But... but the most important thing for me
was to figure out the arc and the craft
of-of writing this memoir.
And I think a lot of things had to happen.
I had to get grown.
Uh, I had to own the experiences.
And I also had to make sure that... the...
the narrative arc only answered the question of whether...
what was... what was mentioned or included
-survived the White Gaze. Right? -Right. Right.
So there were a lot of experiences, obviously,
that I could have included, but that was the process for me
of really, like: Okay, but does that speak
to surviving the White Gaze?
"Surviving the White Gaze" is such an apt description
for what it feels like you went through.
Because for those who don't know a piece of your story,
you-you... you were rai...
you were adopted by a white family,
raised by this family in an all-white neighborhood.
I mean, you didn't see another black person
until, I think it was, what, the age of-- was it six?
Yeah. Six years old.
And you-you tell these stories, and what's really interesting
in the book is how you have your story, as a child
who's adopted by a white family,
and then we learn more of your story, you know,
reconnecting with your birth mother,
reconnecting with your birth father.
And so we'll talk a little bit more about that,
but let's start with the...
with the adoption family.
One of the most controversial conversations that people have,
especially in American today, is: Should white people
be adopting black children?
Some people say no, never.
And then others will say: How can you...
Would you rather have a child not have parents...
you know, than to have white parents who maybe aren't,
you know, well versed in their cultural existence
or how to raise a black child?
And you have an interestingly nuanced point of view on this,
because you lived it.
How would you respond to people who say:
Should white people adopt black children?
So, let me preface my answer by saying,
I was very loved, um, and I believe, uh,
that transracial adoption can work.
What I also think is that it presents a dynamic
that mirrors the kind of foundational relationship
between black folks and white folks.
I am not likening transracial adoption to slavery.
I'm saying that the foundational dynamic
between black folks and white folks
in this country-- and other countries,
but in this country-- is white people setting the tone,
setting the structure, setting the standards,
deciding what is valuable, making choices
for those who don't have any rights, really. Like, and...
So that's what black kids are in these families.
And so if white parents adopt black children
and they don't make very conscious decisions
about incorporating, including, immersing,
valuing, just valuing blackness,
-Right, right. -then it's deeply problematic, right?
It's not just one doll, it's not just one poster,
it's not just one, um, you know, uh, mentor.
It's really an immersion process that has to happen,
um, and that doesn't happen.
Um, and so should white parents adopt black children?
If they are prepared to raise black children
into black adults, then yes.
That's-that's... It seems simple,
and yet it's one of the most complicated things to do,
especially in a country where race
is as fraught as it is in America.
Because you talk about, in the book,
about how your parents didn't even know how to do your hair.
Something that seems innocuous.
You never think of having to know
how to do your child's hair, because it's just hair,
and yet it is so much more than just being hair.
There are parents out there who may say:
Look, I don't want my child to be brought up black.
Why can't they be just raised as a Johnson?
It doesn't have to be about black or white, Rebecca.
Why can't they just be raised as a family member?
Why do I have to remind them of their blackness?
Why do we have to exclude them from the family?
What do you think they're missing
when they say these things?
The idea of just being a Johnson... (laughs)
is in keeping with this notion of race-lessness,
or color-blind,
or post-racial,
which is basically, the message is:
I will value you only if I strip you of something
that is so critically important to you.
Right? Like, I want you to see that I am black.
That's important to me.
I don't need you to bring it up in every conversation, you know?
-(laughs) -That's... but that's the thing, right,
is that so many white people think:
Well, if I'm recognizing your blackness, I'm "othering" you.
No, if you're recognizing my blackness,
you're recognizing what a phenomenal legacy
and culture and people that I come from.
You kept your journals. You know, you kept your letters.
You kept your memories as they were at the time.
It really makes the stories come alive,
and makes some of them even more painful, you know?
I would love to know how you deal with the paradox, at times,
of talking about racism or talking about the ignorance
that some white people will have
with regards to dealing with race,
but then still explain to people that you have white family
who you love and who loved you
and who you work with, et cetera.
Like, how do you deal with explaining that paradox
to other people?
That's a really good question
in that...
especially with the book coming out
and managing, sort of, the fallout,
for lack of a better term,
of how my white family has received the book,
and, you know, sort of foolishly, maybe,
I thought writing this book would be, in some ways,
a kind of offering, a kind of gift for them
to kind of understand, um, what my experience was like.
Uh, but I think that they have felt
kind of betrayed, almost, that, um...
or-or... defensive,
or all of the things that white people feel
when they're sort of, like: Whoa. I don't...
I didn't realize that I was right in the room
-Right. -when this black person was feeling this.
-Right. -And it just happens that that black person
is their sister or their daughter.
I have spent a lifetime...
trying to, you know, be okay with, um...
with-with the whiteness of... of my foun... of my foundation.
Um, and that's why it was so important to me
to meet my black birth father and to raise my son,
who is mixed, but as a black child, as a black boy.
He read your book, by the way, and loved it.
-Thank you. -He's a teenager. Yeah.
Um, and so, you know, it's not about explaining, I think.
It's really about, um,
just walking in the identity that I am.
Right? So Surviving the White Gaze,
it's about surviving, but it's also about becoming.
So it doesn't, you know-- even in conversations
-that I have with my... with my son, -Right, right.
You know, it doesn't make my son any less black
-because his dad is white. -Right.
Well, I honestly hope that everyone reads the book.
And I think for every different reason.
I think for parents with their children, adopted or not.
I think for people who are struggling with identity,
whether they're mixed or not.
I think it's a fantastic book, and I thank you
for taking the time to join me today on the show.
Trevor, thank you so much for having me.
-I really, really appreciate it. -Thank you very much, Rebecca.