>>> WE’RE BACK WITH STATE OF MIND.
MIND. AND WE’RE DIGGING INTO SOMETHING
THAT WAS SO APPARENT IN MICHAEL
COHEN’S TESTIMONY.
COHEN’S TESTIMONY. THE DONALD TRUMP CODE, A SYSTEM
FOR COMMUNICATING EVEN
POTENTIALLY CRIMINAL
POTENTIALLY CRIMINAL INSTRUCTIONS, ALLEGEDLY, THROUGH
MEANINGFUL LOOKS, WINKS AND
NODS, BUT NEVER PUTTING THOSE
ORDERS IN WRITING OVERTLY.
>> MR. TRUMP DID NOT DIRECTLY
TELL ME TO LIE TO CONGRESS.
THAT’S NOT HOW HE OPERATES.
IN CONVERSATIONS WE HAD DURING
THE CAMPAIGN, AT THE SAME TIME I
WAS KISSEL NEGOTIATING IN RUSSIA
FOR HIM, HE WOULD LOOK ME IN THE
EYE AND TELL ME, THERE’S NO
RUSSIAN BUSINESS, AND THEN GO ON
TO LIE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BY
SAYING THE SAME THING.
IN HIS WAY, HE WAS TELLING ME TO
LIE.
LIE. >> TONY SCHWARTZ, FRIEND OF "THE
BEAT" AND CO-AUTHOR OF "THE ART
OF THE DEAL" IS HERE.
AND HE SAYS WHILE WRITING THAT
BOOK DECADES AGO, DONALD TRUMP
WOULD ALSO COMMUNICATE TO HIM IN
CODE SAYING, QUOTE, YOU
UNDERSTAND?
UNDERSTAND? RATHER THAN EXPLICITLY SAYING
WHAT HE WAS GETTING AT.
SCHWARTZ ARGUE TRUMP WAS ALWAYS
AWARE, EVEN THEN OF WHAT MIGHT
GET HIM IN TROUBLE AND AWARE
THAT THOSE CLOSEST TO HIM COULD
TURN ON HIM.
>> WHAT WAS THE BREAKING POINT
AT WHICH YOU DECIDED TO START
TELLING THE TRUTH?
>> HELSINKI, CHARLOTTESVILLE,
WATCHING THE DAILY DESTRUCTION
OF OUR CIVILITY TO ONE ANOTHER.
AND I CAN ONLY WARN PEOPLE, THE
MORE PEOPLE THAT FOLLOW MR.
TRUMP, AS I DID BLINDLY, ARE
GOING TO SUFFER THE SAME
CONSEQUENCES THAT I’M SUFFERING.
>> TONY SCHWARTZ, CEO OF THE
ENERGY PROJECT IS THE AUTHOR OF
"THE WAY WE’RE WORKING ISN’T
WORKING."
WORKING." >> YOU GOT IT.
>> NICE TO HAVE YOU BACK.
>> THANK YOU.
>> BUILD ON WHAT YOU WERE
TELLING US HERE.
>> I JUST HAD MICHAEL COHEN
EVOKE FOR ME THAT EXPERIENCE OF,
I’M GOING TO JUST STATE IT A
SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY.
YOU UNDERSTAND, TONY, RIGHT?
YOU UNDERSTAND?
YOU UNDERSTAND? IT WAS LITERALLY A WINK, BECAUSE
HE LIVED THIS PUBLIC LIFE, EVEN
WHEN HE WASN’T REALLY A PUBLIC
FIGURE.
FIGURE. WHICH IS, HOW’S THIS GOING COME
BACK AT ME?
WHERE’S THIS GOING TO PLAY?
AND SO HE WAS ALWAYS PLAYING THE
ANGLES.
ANGLES. THIS IS WHAT A GRIFTER DOES.
THIS IS WHAT A MAFIA BOSS DOES.
AND HIS STYLE WAS TO BE AWARE OF
WHAT THE IMPACT MIGHT BE AND NOT
TO PUT HIMSELF TOO FAR, PUT HIS
TO RIGHT UP TO THE EDGE, BUT NOT
PUT IT IN.
>> DOESN’T THAT RAISE THE DEEPER
QUESTION OF WHY HE NEVER WANTED
TO PIVOT AND GET OUT OF THAT
MODE OF BEING, IF HE HAD CERTAIN
MOMENTARILY SUCCESSES, GET OUT
OF BEING, AS YOU CALLED A
GIFTER.
GIFTER. >> I THINK THAT HE LIVED INSIDE
SUCH A SMALL WORLD, YOU KNOW, HE
HAD THIS VERY NARROW VIEW OF THE
WORLD AND HE SAW IT AND HAS
ALWAYS SEEN IT AS A WORLD IN
WHICH IT’S ALL PREDATORS.
AND HE HAS TO BE CONSTANTLY
AWARE OF -- HE BELIEVES THAT A
PERSON IS EITHER A PREDATOR OR
IS A LOSER.
AND HE IS ALWAYS DETERMINED TO
BE ON THE SIDE OF THE PREDATOR.
SO THE IDEA THAT HE WOULD
SOMEHOW RISE ABOVE IT, I DON’T
THINK, WAS WITHIN HIS WORLD
VIEW.
VIEW. >> AND WHAT’S INTERESTING,
BECAUSE AS SOMEONE WHO LITERALLY
WROTE THIS BOOK THAT LAUNCHED
HIM, YOU’VE TALKED ABOUT HOW HE
WASN’T SUCH A READER OR A WRITER
HIMSELF, BUT THAT INSIGHT, THAT
WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD, IS
WHAT MANY WRITERS HAVE SAID, AND
MACHIAVELLIAN AND HOBBS AND
OTHERS, IT’S CERTAINLY THE WAY
HE’S RUNNING THE WHITE HOUSE.
AS I’M TALKING, I HAVE ANOTHER
BREAKING STORY, AS YOU KNOW,
IT’S ALWAYS THAT KIND OF THING.
IT’S PERFECT FOR WHAT YOU’RE
TALKING ABOUT.
TALKING ABOUT. "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTS
TONIGHT, TRUMP ORDERED OFFICIALS
TO GIVE HIS SON-IN-LAW JARED
KUSHNER A SECURITY CLEARANCE.
THAT’S SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT
SAYS, INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS
ACTUALLY WERE CONCERNED THAT
WOULD ENDANGER U.S. SECURITY AND
IN AN INTERVIEW ON THE RECORD
WITH "THE TIMES" ITSELF,
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD SAID, QUOTE,
HE WAS NEVER INVOLVED WITH THE
SECURITY CLEARANCE OF KUSHNER.
YOUR VIEW OF HOW THAT FITS IN,
AT THE EXPENSE, POTENTIALLY,
ACCORDING TO THE OFFICIALS, OF
OUR SECURITY.
OUR SECURITY. >> VERY CONSISTENT.
CONSISTENT WITH WHAT COHEN SAID,
WHICH IS, HE’S TELLING HIM TO
PURSUE THE RUSSIAN HOTEL DEAL
AND SAYING, WE HAVE NO BUSINESS
IN RUSSIA AT THE SAME TIME.
SO I’M QUITE SURE THAT HE WANTED
JARED RIGHT BY HIS SIDE.
WHY, BECAUSE HE BELIEVES THAT
JARED IS SOMEBODY WHO WILL NOT
BE DISLOYAL.
BE DISLOYAL. AND SO HE WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW,
WE’RE GOING TO DO THIS AND HE
WOULD ALSO WINK AND NOD AT --
AND BY THE WAY, I NEVER SAID
THIS.
THIS. >> SO HE WOULD KNOW, EVEN AS
HE’S DOING IT, HOW NOT TO TRY --
HOW TO TRY NOT TO GET BUSTED?
>> WELL, AT LEAST TO CREATE AN
AURA AROUND HIM THAT THE LAST
THING ON EARTH YOU SHOULD DO, IF
YOU ARE WORKING FOR HIM, IS TO
CONTRADICT WHAT HE’S SAYING,
EVEN IF HE CALLS THIS A TENNIS
BALL.
BALL. >> THE LAST THING I WANT TO ASK
YOU ABOUT IS SENSITIVE.
CHAIRMAN CUMMINGS, I THINK,
MOVED A LOT OF AMERICANS IN THE
WAY HE CONDUCTED AND CLOSED THE
HEARING.
HEARING. AND HE ALLEGED, IN QUITE SERIOUS
TERMS, THAT THE WAY DONALD TRUMP
PUBLICLY IDENTIFIED COHEN AS A
RAT PUTS HIM IN PHYSICAL DANGER
IN PRISON.
IN PRISON. DO YOU THINK TRUMP APPRECIATED
THAT RISK, LIKED IT, HIS VIEW OF
THE SPECTER OF VIOLENCE?
>> WELL, I THINK I’VE SAID TO
YOU BEFORE THAT TRUMP LOVES
VIOLENCE.
VIOLENCE. HE’S BEEN A -- HE WAS AN
AFICIONADO OF BOXERS, HE LOVED
FOOTBALL.
FOOTBALL. HE -- HE LIKES VIOLENCE.
THE VERY FIRST TIME I WROTE
ABOUT HIM, THE PICTURE ON THE
COVER OF "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE WAS
OF HIM AS A THUG.
HE PUT THAT PICTURE UP ON THE
WALL OF HIS OFFICE.
>> WOW.
>> WOW. >> SO I THINK HE GETS OFF ON
VIOLENCE.
VIOLENCE. SO, MY ANSWER WOULD BE, YES.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. AND THAT’S SOMETHING THAT
CHAIRMAN CUMMINGS, WHO WE’VE
REPORTED IS QUITE CAREFUL ABOUT
THESE THINGS, WAS PUTTING ON THE
RECORD IN A SERIOUS WAY.
>> HE DOESN’T HEAR IT.
TRUMP DOESN’T HEAR IT.