First of all,
thank you for the interview.
Let’s start with the war in Ukraine.
Do you think the EU is doing enough
to counter Russia’s invasion in Ukraine?
In particular, with military, financial and humanitarian aid.
In my opinion, the EU is not doing enough to try to steer this conflict
towards a solution, to try to find a way out of this conflict.
Robert Schumann,
a founding father of the European project
said that world peace cannot be safeguarded
se non apprezzo gli sforzi creativi.
without making creative efforts.
I see no creative efforts. I see no courage at this historic stage from the EU.
I see a European Union that is unable
to come up with a common position,
to build a path that is in some way alternative to
the only path we are now passing through and taking, which is that of military escalation.
By creative efforts, what exactly do you mean?
For example, you mentioned Schuman, the founding father of the EU,
who was in favour of an united European foreign policy.
What’s the position of the Five Star Movement on this?
I believe that after these steps that we have taken,
these bricks that we have built, we cannot stop.
We must move forward, for example on the level of common European defence.
Obviously, a common European defence
can only be linked to a European foreign policy.
From this point of view, Europe, if it wants leadership, if it wants to claim leadership,
must take big steps, new trajectories,
but above all, starting now, from this conflict,
I would really recommend:
if the EU does not play a role,
if it does not manage to make its voice
heard in this very critical international perspective,
if, even imagined, we were to arrive at a peace negotiation,
where the EU, amid a war here in the heart of Europe
will not play a leading role,
this will mean a loss of political credibility, a loss of leadership on the European side.
You were talking about military escalation.
What do you think military de-escalation is? What should European leaders do?
There was a meeting in the Ramstein format.
It seems to me that it was a meeting where the words
'peace', 'negotiation' did not resonate.
It is now discussed and taken for granted that we only meet to
feed military strategies,to plan new deployments.
Of course, we stand by Ukraine.
From the very first moment we, also as the Five Star Movement,
have strongly condemned the aggression, we recognise that
the aggression of Putin's Russia is unjustified,
absolutely contrary to any principle of international law,
and we have also for this reason supported all aid, including military aid to Ukraine.
There was an obvious military
asymmetry and we could not leave Ukraine alone.
But I think, a year has passed.
Where is this military strategy taking us?
There is a deficit of politics.
We want to ask ourselves which path we are taking?
Are we embracing the risk of a nuclear deflagration?
Are we embracing the risk of a war that could go on for years?
So the question I pose to the EU, to our democracies,
to our public opinions:
are we sure that we will be able to take this road?
Or will we end up like Afghanistan,
where we suddenly realise that the economic costs, the social costs
are absolutely unbearable and we will abandon Ukraine itself?
Then we have to be smart.
We must have a political vision, and build a path of peace negotiations.
It is hard, of course, peace costs money.
It has to be built with great, constant efforts.
But that is the direction we must take.
Let’s talk about the National Recovery and Resilience Plan (NRRP).
In Rome, the media talks about a ‘new Recovery Plan’
while in Brussels there are discussions about changes allowed by Recovery Plan rules,
due to inflation.
You were involved in the plan,
as it was approved during your time in government.
What changes have you seen with the Draghi
and Meloni’s government, regarding the implementation of the plan?
And what do you think of Meloni’s current narrative on the subject?
First of all, I always said in the aftermath, when we got this important result,
not only for Italy, for the whole EU,
it was an incredible breakthrough, it was a paradigm shift.
The EU took a decisive step forward with that NextGenerationEU
and I immediately said to my entire community, to all Italian citizens,
now we must deserve this result.
We should not have to waste a single euro because Italy's credibility
and the investment of trust that the EU has made in Italy
and in the other countries with the greatest difficulties is at stake.
It is clear that we have difficulties.
2026 is a very close deadline.
Spending those important resources is not easy,
and it is not easy for a country like Italy,
also because austerity policies,
imposed at European level, have never grown,
and have always been the so-called ‘tail end’.
I am referring to GDP, the ability to invest,
to fruitfully spend even all the EU funds.
So now there are situations that
require a new investment of trust.
Italy is not the worst off,
but it is clear that we are in a new emergency: inflation.
The high cost of energy.
The high energy bills affect the entire European economy and common market.
Once again, therefore, Europe must intelligently seek
to relaunch its economy in the name of social development,
and it must do so with great vision, strength and determination.
We also have the US Inflation Reduction Act,
which certainly risks making EU companies less competitive in the future.
We must respond with a new financing instrument
based on common debt
that can boost the competitiveness of European companies.
Turning to the subject of energy, the Meloni government just launched the so-called Mattei plan
at a meeting in Algeria.
Antonio Tajani [foreign affairs minister] has also been to Egypt.
So, is there the intention to articulate a new foreign policy for Italy?
Do you think there is continuity with your previous government?
With the approach towards North Africa, or are we really facing a new Italian foreign policy?
Frankly, I do not see any signs of a turnaround in Italian foreign policy.
Everything seems to me to be in line with attention to those countries, especially in the North African belt,
with which we have historically consolidated relations.
With Algeria, we already had contracts in place
at a time of greatest difficulty,
when we needed diversification and a different energy supply.
So, it seems to me that this visit to Algeria by President Meloni
is a sign of the consolidation of these treaties,
Then, with regard to the relationship on the development cooperation front,
tenga conto che io avevo già promosso
bear in mind that I had already promoted a new cooperation model, a partnership of equals,
completely abandoning the visions of the past, particularly about relations with African countries.
Then today, there is 'Mattei plan' slogan. But this Mattei plan seems to me
devoid of content at the moment because, I repeat, there is nothing new in it.
On the contrary, I have to say with dismay that
there has also been a decrease in the
Foreign Ministry's investment chapter for development cooperation, particularly with Africa.
So, it is necessary to fill these perspectives of these
new models of cooperation and development with content.
At the moment, the Mattei plan remains a slogan.
Moreover, about making Italy an energy hub:
it is a prospect that not only requires large investments,
but also takes time in the medium and long term.
Take into account that nowadays, we do not have adequate infrastructure to be able to then transmit and transport gas
to the rest of Europe.
Do you think it is a sensible investment to make Italy an energy hub?
Or are there, do you see risks?
The Five Star Movement believes that it is an absolute priority to invest in renewables.
Because even the gas market, which has now also become,
in public opinion,
the most urgent issue to be kept under control,
is a market that, the experts already tell us should stabilise between 2030 and 2050.
We, on the other hand, must focus on renewables.
The real breakthrough is there to shape Italy
and the EU but in Europe in the sign of ecological transition.
Staying in the Arab world -
here in Brussels we’ve recently had the so-called Qatargate corruption scandal.
The European People's Party has repeatedly accused the Socialists of being the problem within the institutions,
saying that the events are a scandal for the Socialists,
rather than of the EU and the European Parliament.
What is the Five Star Movement's position on this?
The Five Star Movement is at the forefront of tackling issues around legality,
the fight against corruption, against all forms of infiltration of institutions by malevolent actors.
It is in the DNA of the Five Star Movement to cultivate effective policies against it.
I will tell you just one fact: under my first government,
we have introduced an anti-corruption law in Italy
that is one of the most effective regulatory texts even
by international standards in the fight against corruption.
Now, indeed, the concern, and there is a strong discussion within this current government,
is that this threshold of attention, of combatting not only the mafia,
but also corruption, may be lowered.
In Europe, this scandal risks creating disaffection between the European public
and the European institutions.
So, The European institutions, those in charge, have already begun
to outline a path to strengthen the garrisons of legality
and with to fight corruption.
I believe that it is absolutely urgent to create
an independent body that can assess
all the conflicts of interest that can be generated,
and can assess all the reports that arrive of interference in the work of European institutions
by foreign powers or third parties.
Then again, I believe that it is important to approve a Directive that can,
as we did with the so-called Severino law,
egulate the ineligibility or disqualification of MEPs,
including European officials, from their elective offices or career posts,
with regard, for example, to judgments that have become final concerning offences
against public administration, corruption, or serious crimes.
Right now, it is the Five Star Movement has no political position within a European family.
MEP Fabio Massimo Castaldo has repeatedly spoken of negotiations with the European Greens,
so we wanted to know where these negotiations stand and whether you have
any intentions of running for the European elections with the European Greens.
Certainly, the Greens group is a political family that in terms of our identity and political vision is very similar in terms of the policies pursued.
So, there is a debate with the Greens group and we are refining it.
a noi interessano come sempre i programmi, la possibilità
Programmes have a central role to us, in the possibility of strengthening our political action
and, of course, in finding interlocutors, in a group, also who can share this project of ours.
It is a project that is absolutely built on an effective ecological transition.
It's a project that is built on a labour policy.
For example, in Italy we have the problem of ‘starvation wages’
and we have the problem of ‘wild precariousness’.
We have the problem of the low purchasing power of workers.
Vogliamo affrontare la nuova frontiera della riduzione del tempo di lavoro
We want to tackle the new frontier of reduced working time experienced in other countries,
while in Italy working time is very dilated and with low productivity.
We absolutely want to share a massive investment
project for renewable energy.
We want to overcome the restrictive austerity policy as an end in itself. These are our ideas, our perspectives.
And certainly that group appears to us
to be a privileged interlocutor to pursue these policies.