Hi, I’m Malia Baker. I’m defending the novel Scarborough on Canada Reads 2022.
Scarborough weaves together the stories of three resilient children and their families
in a community challenged by poverty and often overlooked by its neighbours.
Catherine Hernandez is the author of Scarborough, and she’s here joining me on Zoom.
Hey Catherine, how are you doing?
Oh my god, it's happening. It’s happening, Malia!
Oh, first of all, I wanted to give you the reason why I chose this book.
When I first picked it up, the first opening pages, from the dedication to the first chapter
you could tell that this is going to be raw and authentic and real.
And that's something that you can't really spark in a book a lot of times when I found I'm looking for a new book to read.
And yours did it for me right away
and so it's just too good of an opportunity to pass up, and I'm just so grateful now getting a chance to know you.
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm grateful for you for picking up my book, for believing it enough to defend it on national television and radio.
This means so much to me, and this is seriously a dream come true to be shortlisted for this competition.
Dream for both of us. We've got this. Now the first question.
Catherine, why did you write this book and what was the process like?
I wrote this book. Well, there's two things.
One of them is I definitely wanted to capture the spirit of a community,
this community that was really supporting me during a really challenging time.
At that time, I was a single mother. I had a struggling home daycare situation,
really living hand-to-mouth and and when I say paycheque to paycheque, it wasn't really that.
It was like handful of change to handful of change, sometimes hoping that
I would make enough money just for groceries and to make the rent.
And so capturing the precarity of those times, I wanted to tell a story about a community that refuses to be undone,
even though they're facing a system that's really designed to fail them.
And the process of writing it, funny enough, is that I would write it before the children would arrive at the home daycare.
You definitely get that sense, when you read the book, it’s like the desperation of those times.
100%. I thought it was really interesting the way that it was represented.
It almost felt like a documentary that was written down. It was just so true.
Even the dialogue I was like, "Oh yeah, that's like things that people say, this isn't polished."
This isn't something that is super uncandid, and you can read it for hours on end and say,
“Oh, they went through like years and years, making sure this is perfect, perfect, perfect.”
And as much as it was perfect, perfect, perfect, it was in its original and authentic way.
And so just props to you.
Thank you.
You could definitely feel it in the words.
A lot of the story is told from the perspective of little kids. Why did you make that decision?
I thought it was so intriguing.
Well, because, as we know that, children in the first two years of their life
will learn almost everything that they need to know to survive as a human being. So most of their cognitive skills are learned in those first two years of life and
the speed at which they learn is something that I wanted for the book.
So it's actually quite a short book. Arsenal did their best to sort of enlarge the font.
I’ve got to say a funny story about writing Scarborough. Because I was a playwright, this is my first novel.
And so I remember writing the first manuscript, and at 20,000 words, I was like, I just wrote 20,000 words! Finished!
And I didn't realize that, you know, you have to at least hit about like 80,000 words for a novel to feel, to have the right heft that people are, publishers were expecting.
I just remember writing it, and it just feeling so new to me that
I just felt excited about people finally learning about my community.
And so, yeah, so it was just it was exciting. Because it just feels really odd.
This book is really taking me on some major adventures.
You know, everything from it being adapted into a film at TIFF to now this, it just feels completely unreal.
What did you personally take away from the experience of writing this novel?
From the experience of writing this novel…
is that first off, I always say this when it comes to my writing process
because I really believe that the ancestors just speak through me and I'm just writing down what they want me to say. And then also that community matters, especially because we're right now in the middle of a pandemic.
I think that what this pandemic really teaches us is what happens when community is not the priority.
What happens when we don't care about other people? This is what happens.
And so the antidote to that, obviously, is to love one another, to really centre safety,
to really ensure that everyone has access, equal access to resources.
That's what I'm hoping that people... that's what I got out of it when I was writing it, for sure. Right, exactly. And I feel like that's something that people definitely take away after reading the book,
at least what I took away while reading the book.
And, in that ,I was wondering, since there's so many perspectives in that community and you wrote all of them so eloquently,
how was that like? Especially since not all the perspectives, you can't live in each one, to have those different lives.
What was the experience of writing that like?
Well, you know, I wanted to have Scarborough be its own character in the novel.
My editor, Robyn So at Arsenal Pulp Press, was just like, "I want you to think of it as another character and maybe map it out."
And I actually had a map that I would say, this scene happens here and this happens here, so I can have an idea of it, right?
And that helped me a great deal. But the thing is, it's not just about the map of it, but it's also how you traverse through Scarborough. So I can't go anywhere. I can't go to the grocery store or the Dollar Store or whatever without bumping into somebody
and then us exchanging stories for the day. So it takes a long time to get anything done, that's for sure, in Scarborough.
I really wanted to capture that like sort of start-stop, start-stop, listening to everybody's gossip.
So when you look at the book, it is from these multiple perspectives and then when it came to really editing down,
what that's going to look like, I really wanted to make sure that people who are from those different communities felt that they were well represented.
And I mentioned this a lot in all of my interviews is that when you're depicting people that are outside of a community,
just make sure that those people from those communities that are reflecting back to you, like ways in which you can do better
and also pay them for their time, either a capitalist exchange or if, in my case, at that time, because I was really struggling
sometimes it was just a loaf of bread or my labour.
Right now it's very in vogue to have what they call a sensitivity reader
and I have issues with that, partly because you're not having these people read it because people are sensitive.
So I called it an accountability team. They're there to keep you accountable and so that you could do better as a writer.
I really love the way that you rephrased that. I think that's very, very true.
And other than the fact that they are all the characters live in Scarborough, what do you think ties all these stories together?
I think what ties them all together is that everyone, everyone just really wants to thrive.
They want to do good by people, even the people who are the least likeable characters in the novel, such as Cory.
The truth is, is that even he wants to do well by his child.
It's just that when people don't have the resources, when they don't have the skills to do what they need to do, they make bad choices.
And those bad choices can affect lives in horrifying ways.
And as someone who is racialized, which is so funny because a lot of times, journalists will really commend me for how three dimensional Cory is
as this person who was part of the skinhead groups in the 1990s in Scarborough.
And I find this so funny just because, like the expectation to really make sure that people who are white supremacists
are given that chance just to be three-dimensional.
Whereas, you know, when you're racialized, I mean, you're hoping for even just one dimension,
even if there's a person that is even just showing up on the screen. You're happy, right?
So yeah. So I'm just glad. I'm glad that Cory doesn't come off as two-dimensional,
and I'm also glad that I was able to find the compassion for him, especially because in the nineties,
there were men just like him in skinhead groups who sincerely, I was terrified of them.
So it was wonderful to sort of, in my mind, make peace with those people who really a lot of times
they're attracted to hate groups because they are outcasts in society.
And so as a writer, I really have to really meet this person in the middle.
Right, for sure. I feel like a lot of the marginalized groups, when you see them on the telly or you see them in books,
it's always a sob story behind them. You get to read more about them.
And like you said, we're just grateful for that one side of perspective that one threefold like, oh my God, she even said she had curly hair.
That's crazy. Like, I have that one sense of relatability. I just feel like this book reins that in, you know, it showed all the sides.
It showed some of the amazing memories and it shows some of the heartbreaking ones
and it was just full rounded in that way where you could feel that sense of relatability if you're in it
and if you're not, then you could still kind of feel the spark that was there, you know?
Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah.
I was wondering, like you were saying about how you learned a lot about yourself while writing these characters
What's one of the most impactful things that you learned about yourself, especially putting yourself in all these other perspectives’ shoes?
Well, you know, as someone who identifies as a queer femme woman and also the fact that obviously I present as a brown woman
is that I learned that you can re-parent yourself.
So Vivek Shreya, who is a beautiful author, a creator of beautiful things in this world,
Vivek Shreya wrote a children's book called The Boy in the Bindi, and I remember her saying
at one of her events that she wrote a book in which she just really wanted this feminine South Asian boy to be feminine
and still be loved by his mother for doing feminine things.
And she said, “I just really wanted to tell a story in which he is loved because I can do that. I'm an author.
I can do whatever I want.” And I thought, that's exactly it. Like when it comes to Bing,
I can author into being a child who is feminine, fat, Filipino and gay, who is loved by his mother. I can do it because I'm the author. I can create it. And that means that also in this world, we can create that reality. Right?
It's just as simple as making a decision. And when it came to like authoring things into being,
like authoring into being Ms. Hina as the facilitator of the literacy program,
I wanted to author into being a social worker who was brave enough to stand up to her manager. And that was really powerful because I would do these readings at events, and these frontline workers would tell me,
"Thank you so much for writing that because I don't have the bravery," and I say, "Yes, you do.
All you have to do is do what I did, write it into being." If I can write it, they can do it.
It's so interesting and intriguing to see a book that's in our reality and it is our world and it is our Earth,
and it just shows all the possibilities of what it could be.
Yes.
And Bing, like you said, that character, oh my God, my heart poured. Oh, I love him. And everyone included. It's just so interesting to see the different perspectives.
And it's like you said about the frontline workers, they could feel it, and I know a lot of people will be able to do the same thing,
even with the smallest ounce of compassion or sincerity when it comes to reading it.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
OK. The theme of Canada Reads this year is One Book To Connect Us. What do you think of that and how do you think it resonates to your story?
Oh, well, I feel glad that this is the theme for the moment that Scarborough is going to be entering into the ring
because that's exactly what this book is about. It's about: what does sincere connection between each other look like?
Right? You know, it's a recurring theme between all of the characters where you have Sylvie,
who is like a really parentified child having to learn to make a connection with her mother,
even though her mother has her hands full trying to navigate the special education system, right?
You have Bing trying to make a connection with his classmates, even though he is considered to be different and weird
and Ms. Hina obviously building bridges with a community that has very little trust in her.
What I'm hoping for is that the people who read Scarborough is that
it's going to be more like, who's across the way from me and my house, who's taking care of my children, who are the leaders in my small community? And how can I make sure that we're all moving towards the collective idea that all of us deserve to be safe?
Right? 100%. I found that when I first heard the theme, I was like, “This is going to be perfect for this book.”
It was just the thing that truly wrapped it all together and everything that you said, just yes.
OK, last question, do you have any advice for me as I get ready for the competition?
Oh my goodness. Well, I feel like as long as you understand that this is a discussion about the importance of whatever the themes are in the book and not necessarily winning.
I think that that's the number one thing, right? Because this is a discussion about great books for people to discover.
I think that that's what's going to be incredible to witness. But other than that, I mean, seriously, Malia, I think that you are such a dynamo.
I just have absolute confidence in you, no matter what happens in the competition.
I just feel like I've already won having you championing this book, because that feels like an award like in and of itself.
But I mean, just have fun. Just have fun and be present in the conversation. That's all. I mean, how do you feel? How do you feel?
I'm terrified. I got to be honest. I’m so scared, but I feel like it's a good thing to be scared, you know?
The times that you should really worry is when your fear has gone away and you're not nervous about things anymore
and this is something that gets me nervous. It’s something that's out of my comfort zone.
And everyone involved in it so far has been so lovely and I'm excited. But wow, nervous.
OK, there's just one thing I wanted to say too, is that I know that, myself included, we're all like, amazed by your age,
but your age aside, the truth is is that you're there, your voice matters, you're a powerful person,
and that you're someone that everyone should be really happy that you're even at the table. So there you go.
Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. I feel like just having all these amazing kind of mentor-like roles around me and having you
and just even being able to speak to you, it's a blessing for sure.
Oh, awesome. Well, thank you so much for choosing my book. Of course. Of course. I'm so happy I got the chance to read it.